It would be less bad if Israel took purely defensive actions. Beefed up iron shield. Beefed up ground security at the border. Accepted that Oct 7 was a massive loss that they can’t right.
Because Broomstick is right. Killing tons of civilians doesn’t hurt Hamas leadership in any way. It probably helps them, by creating orphans sympathetic to their cause. And it also hurts Jews everywhere else in the world. And it weakens Israeli ties with whatever allies it has internationally, like the US.
There are probably other actions that would be less bad, too. Probably even including some that would hurt Hamas. They might have higher risks for the Israeli military. But it’s not my job to find the best option. That’s a question for Israeli leadership. I can look and say, “Israel is currently doing bad shit, shit that’s bad for me, bad for Palestinian civilians, and bad for Israel.” And yes, at the end of the day, i do care most that it’s bad for me, because like everyone else, i am selfish.
And for the first time in my life, I’m feeling anxious about my safety as a Jew. Not because of Hamas, but because of Israel. After all, if every Palestinian is fair game because “their leadership is evil” then it’s not very hard to argue that every Jew is fair game, for exactly the same reason.
In an ideal world, this might break the cycle of violence. But in the real world, a purely defensive reaction from Israel would just reward Palestinian militants (and their sponsors) and embolden them to launch their next large-scale terrorist act.
Let me say that I appreciate your sentiment of doing whatever needs to be done to protect the safety of your nation, your people, and yourself. It is real and it is genuine.
But I hope that you appreciate that many in the West have reached the point of saying, “all right, do what you gotta do, but I’m out.” And appreciate that winning by any means necessary comes with a cost on the global stage, that could include actions taken against Israel like cuts in aid, boycotts, and increased support for Palestinians.
I know there is no easy solution, and I know that people in Israel are also dying and living in fear. This whole thing sucks. And wasting time arguing about what did/could have/should have happened in 1947-48 is pointless. The State of Israel exists, period. And Israel is going to do what it has to do to defend itself. But I am under no obligation to support what Israel is doing, and it is also my right to denounce those actions, and even call upon my government to stop providing military aid to Israel.
To all of which you may say you don’t care, Israel needs to defend itself by any means necessary. And that’s cool, I’m a realpolitik kind of guy. Just don’t complain when the rest of the world declares Israel a rogue state. We’re just doing what we have to do.
ISTM that the differences from the past are precisely why this war has been deadlier. In the past, since 2006, Israel has refused to commit to the sort of ground engagement we see now because it was known how entranched Hamas is and just how deadly a war on its home turf, where it has control over the civilian population, would be.
Look at 2014. That matches what you describe. Hamas fires some rockets at civilians; Israel destroys some Hamas positions; Hamas runs out of rockets so everyone goes home until they can smuggle some more in over the next couple years.
A ground invasion is a radical shift in strategy. There is no magical strategy that destroys Hamas without impacting the surrounding population - not when Hamas works so hard to make that impossible.
Ground is being taken. Ground where Hamas can no longer operate, where it no longer has control.
Many people have pointed out the horrible cost of the war, and I agree. It is horrible. But what no one has done is present a viable alternative. That’s because there isn’t one.
That’s just accepting that Oct 7 will occur again, and again, and again. It’s telling Hamas, “great work on sorrounding yourself with civilians! Human shields are super effective against the IDF. You are now indestructible; grab more kids and keep doing what you’re doing!”.
This is not the position of Israel, the IDF, or any of the actual Israelis in this thread. (It may be the position of some of the “Pro-Israel” Americans, but they are not actually “pro-Israel”, just using this as an excuse to spew hate against Palestinians).
Unless your house sits on top of an IDF bunker or weapons depot.
If, as it appears, Hamas wants Palestinians to suffer in order to draw in Islamic nations to a larger war then it’s incumbent on Palestinians to categorically reject Hamas and install a new government.
Hamas consists of more than a couple of people in Qatar. There are Hamas representatives and a military wing in Gaza and they should be held to account by the local people. Palestinians need to assemble their own political group to counter Hamas leaders hiding in absentia.
No, beefing up defense is an action to prevent things like this from happening. Perhaps more ground forces near Gaza and better intelligence. Heck, there’s now gossip that Israel HAD intelligence about this attack and ignored it.
the “human shield” part of that argument would be a lot stronger if the rest of us had any evidence that Israel has achieved any worthwhile military goals through its attacks. But they destroyed a major hospital and found what? As many guns and stuff as you might find in a single-family house in Texas, and the entrance to a tunnel. I have to think that a heavily-armed ground force could have gotten to that tunnel without taking out the entire hospital. Yes, there would have been some Israeli casualties. You can’t fight a war without losing a few soldiers.
What military benefit has any of the attacks on civilians gained? It’s really hard to see any at all. “Harassing the civilians” doesn’t hurt Hamas, it HELPS Hamas. And some of that “harassment” appears to be a violation of international law.
No, but it is the position of a lot of anti semites. And Israel’s actions are giving them a much stronger argument than they’ve ever had. I am as much part of the “support of Israel” as some of those dead Palestinians are part of the “support of Hamas”.
I’m sorry that you believe this, but this is literal gaslighting. A single-family home in Texas may have hundreds of guns, and that’s a pretty bad indictment of Texas, but it won’t have dozens of Anti Tank rifles, mortars, explosives and explosive vests, etc…
I’ve seen this claim repeated a bunch in that specific phrasing, and I don’t mean to single you out. But it simply is not true.
There’s no such thing as a perfect defense. And if you have a fantastic near perfect defense, than as you point out, you get complacent and fail to adapt.
Cite that the IDF is attacking civilians?
The IDF is attacking Hamas positions. Eliminating Hamas terrorists and infrastructure and capturing ground from them has been the benefit gained.
Absolutely, and please feel free to do so. I claim no monopoly on the right of petition. But for decades the citizens of Israel have expected the unwaivering US support of their actions, including huge amounts of military aid. And Americans who spoke up against Israel were often branded as being anti-Semitic.
And as has been said during the debates about this current war regarding Israel being pushed around, FUCK THAT. It is within my right to say that Israel is being the asshole here. And just as Palestinians as a whole are being blamed for the actions of Hamas, I now call out the people of Israel as being responsible for the actions of their government including the mass killing of civilians.
Does my call out change anything, of course not. But I am tired of the sanctimonious shit of Israel saying we will do whatever it takes because we are right, but then claiming a special status as a historically persecuted people who are therefore beyond criticism. You wanna bomb Gaza? Go ahead, just own it, go full heel. And be a big boy on the international stage, and accept that “doing whatever is necessary” means losing friends and losing support. Israel isn’t special, it’s just another nation flexing it’s military power. As an American, I’ve learned not to take a personally when foreigners call us out. There is a support group for warmongering nations at the library on Tuesday evenings. It’s run by a delightful English gentleman who used to live around your parts.
Can you point to a source? I saw some IDF video that was totally underwhelming, and a lot of reports of it that suggested that what I hadn’t seen was also underwhelming.
IDF has destroyed hospitals. There were civilians in those hospitals. IDF has bombed individuals who were pro-peace. I’ve read obituaries of some.
IDF is under no obligation to publish everything it knows. But I am under no obligation to believe them when they claim that every civilian death is justified because there was a Hamas militant standing next to that person. It’s frankly implausible.
The alternative is to place the West Bank and Gaza under the control of a Constituent Assembly composed of parties far removed from the special interests involved. Probably academics from Japan, Canada, Sweden etc. and backed by the power of the US and others. Similar to what happened in Japan and Germany after WW2. Their goal would be to form, over time, a viable economy with a native civil service organization and government in what is now occupied and contested areas.
When the Palestinians have an alternative path, Hamas will cease to exist.
Israel has failed every opportunity to resolve the ethnicity issue. Israeli State owned rain over the West Bank is kind of a last straw. The situation needs to be resolved so it has be removed from Israeli influence.
I don’t trust Netanyahu and Co as far as I can throw them. But they’re also not the ones running this war, not at the level of picking airstrike targets or directing troops on the ground. And I do trust the IDF, far more than I trust this particular civilian government.
I don’t think you’d find very many people in Israel opposed to this. I’d trust such a group far more than the PA (with their Martyr’s Fund) or a coallition of neighboring Arab states (which has been floated but the danger is that they may see a benefit to the Palestinians lacking a stable state).
If the international community offered to come in and do this I would wholeheartedly support them doing so tomorrow.
But why would anyone who isn’t forced by circumstance to be a part of this clusterfuck ever come anywhere near this situation?