Form an alternate government and surrender.
Sounds like a plan. They probably have a majority of the population in the south.
I suggested one option that I believe would be better than the path they are on. I declined to suggest the best option, because I am not qualified to do that. But I didn’t back away from proposing an alternative that would be less bad.
And
WTF is the “active conflict zone”? Where-ever Israel decides to strike? It seems to be all of Gaza, including the places Israel told the civilians to go.
I was referring to al-Quds. My understanding of Banquet_Bear’s post is he was referring specifically to airstrikes and artillery, which I do think must be reserved for sites of active Hamas fire or troop concentrations. My understanding is that al-Shifa itself was not bombed (though there was a strike on a vehicle that the IDF claims was being used to transport Hamas militants) immediately nearby. Al-Shifa was occupied by IDF troops, which I do consider to be a proportionate response to having an arsenal in its MRI Zone 3. If you have a report of the IDF bombing Al-Shifa, I am open to being educated.
No, I would not. But the question wasn’t “what’s a moral or legal alternative?” it was “what’s an alternative?”
Frankly, I think the two-state solution should have been imposed and enforced decades ago, but I don’t have either a time machine or the ability to impose my will in such a manner. Right now I think both sides in this war are in the wrong.
As for targeted assassinations - it would be a horrifically deplorable thing, but perhaps, just maybe, a lesser evil than killing 20,000 or 30,000 or more innocent civilians. I mean, both alternatives suck, are criminal, terrible, horrible, no-good things but one of them will have a lower body count. But that’s not the same thing as saying I support it or would condone it.
Israel - and Hamas - is in a no-win situation. And it’s largely their own damn fault although when I say something like that these days I’m often accused of antisemitism. Criticizing the actions of the Israeli government is not at all antisemitism, being Jewish is not a get-out-of-criticism-free card.
But let’s look at what you’ve laid out:
Not going to happen - no government on Earth can tolerate the sort of attack that occurred on October 7 without a response.
The problem here (as I see it) is not that they’re engaging in this option but the MANNER in which it is being done. Such as telling civilians to move to the south of Gaza for safety then bombing the shit out of the so-called “safe zones”. That is sadistic and cruel. Depriving the civilian population of food, water, fuel, and all other resources is a war crime, sadistic, and cruel. It results in disproportionate civilian deaths and that has a LOT to do with why Israel is losing the PR war and may, in the future, become a reason it loses US support. Bombing the shit out of a hospital, entering it, and taking absolutely no responsibility for bed-ridden patients left behind there and just leaving them to die. That is inhumane, sadistic, and cruel and the IDF/Israeli government have done exactly that more than once in this conflict.
Again - it is not that the IDF is engaging Hamas, it is the MANNER in which the IDF is doing this.
That is an alternative to B that might result in more equitable casualty numbers between the two sides. If that results in fewer dead innocent civilians it’s an acceptable trade-off. If such a ground invasion was conducted as the current operation has been - cutting off all necessities of life, telling people to evacuate to safe zones then attacking said safe zones, destroying hospitals and leaving people inside to die - then it is no better.
Pretty reprehensible, but then so is how the IDF is going about choice B. If this approach saved tens of thousands of lives then it would be the lesser evil.
Again - it’s not that option B is inherently the worst choice, or an immoral choice, it’s how the IDF/Israeli government are going about it.
I suggested one option that I believe would be better than the path they are on.
Fair - I apologize and retract my accusation. As I mentioned yesterday I’ve been reading a lot of “Israel shouldn’t do X” recently, without the accompanying “Israel should do Y instead”; sorry for conflating your post with those.
WTF is the “active conflict zone”? Where-ever Israel decides to strike? It seems to be all of Gaza, including the places Israel told the civilians to go.
Your post implied that you, as an American Jew, feel that Israel’s targeting parameters render you a valid target. This seems hyperbolic to me - I see no evidence that Israel is targeting anyone outside of Hamas-controlled territory.
I imagine that when hamas hides among the people in a safe zone, it is no longer safe.
Then just admit there are no safe zones. Otherwise it is a cruel lie. The reality is that there is no safe place in Gaza, the IDF is free to bomb anything anywhere without regard to collateral damage - a pretty phrase for “dead and maimed civilians”.
Who is getting the aid we’re sending If there are no safe zones?
Since 2015 anyone attempting to do that has been killed by Hamas, They really are entrenched.
Expecting people who are refugees slowly dying of hunger and thirst to engage in an uprising is not a realistic expectation
And if that’s not convincing - the fact that Israel had control of Al-Shifa hospital then left bedridden patients to die instead of stepping up and actually providing care to those people is just disgusting and sick.
International standards call upon a warring nation to provide care even to enemies that are no longer combat soldiers by reason of injury or illness. The government of Israel is abrogating their responsibility and should be called out on it.
Also, this:
I’m getting heartily sick of the “Jews are special victims” bullshit. They aren’t the only persecuted people on the planet, they aren’t the first, or even the most recent, to face genocide. And I say that as a Jew who lost the European branch of my father’s family to WWII.
Also:
I am really getting vibes of the US-Vietnam war when our government was lying about who was getting bombed and sending young men into meat-grinders for no damn good reason.
The military follows the lead of the civilian government. And it’s a damn shame that this is tarring the reputation of the many decent, patriotic, and good men and women serving in the IDF but it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole barrel. Good people serving an evil and unjust government is appalling, but it can happen.
How? Be specific.
Worked for Bush the Younger.
I will believe it when I see it. And I very much hope your prediction is accurate.
Not in this thread, no, but there is evidence that there are some people who do, in fact, consider every Palestinian “fair game”.
I think you’ve misunderstood the position of some American Jews.
As one such I don’t fee that Israel will target me. I am concerned pro-Hamas entities might do so. Or antisemites. Certainly there are parties who feel justified in targeting water supplies in the US or US healthcare institutions.
The amount of aid betting through is laughably insufficient for the numbers of starving, thirsty, wounded people.
And, since they have the guns, I expect Hamas is getting at least some of it. But since the only way to perfectly prevent Hamas from getting any is to allow nothing in, dooming tens of thousands to a slow death, I think we have to allow aid anyway and not have the perfect be the enemy of the good, or even the better-than-nothing.
Yes, i do. And no, i don’t think Israel is going to target me, i think Israel is giving moral cover for random anti semites to target me. Like, really major serious moral equivalency.
I can’t readily imagine an antisemite who’d be perfectly willing to target me if and only if they are — or believe they are — given, uh, moral cover by this; isn’t there, like, an old saying about how any excuse can satisfy people who are already looking for one?
No, i don’t think Israel is going to bomb the US. That would be incredibly stupid of them.
I live near several major college campuses. In the past, I’ve always felt that American Jews and American Muslims were basically allies. We are both “not quite white” and not at all Christian, and have had a lot of common interests. The nearby mosque is across the street from a synagogue, and the two have a lot of joint activities.
All of a sudden, I’m afraid that some of those Muslim college kids, frustrated that the US is supporting Israel in it’s rather extreme acts of… frankly, they look more like revenge than like actual military actions from where i sit… will decide that if every civilian in Gaza is fair game for Israel, maybe they can fight back by attacking me.
That’s how Israel’s actions are affecting me.
Cite?
I’ll just throw in here that the local synagogue I occasionally attend has had to divert money from its building fund for badly needed repairs and maintenance in order to increase security and remove graffiti from the building. Contrary to rumors of Jewish wealth, it’s not a congregation with a lot of money.
Nor do I enjoy the increased scrutiny greeting me at the door of synagogues and Jewish cultural centers in this area. They know me so they let me in but I am definitely aware of the bumped up security.
I will not be putting any menorahs in my window this Hanukkah.
I try not to flinch when I hear certain types of comments at work from either fellow employees or customers.
That’s how Israel’s actions are affecting me.
There are two million people who have had all water, food, fuel, and power cut.
Before October 7 - 500 trucks a day entered Gaza, along with power lines and water pipes.
For part of the times since October 7 as many as 100 trucks were permitted in a day - but many days there were none.
During the “pause in fighting” as many as 200 a day were permitted which is still inadequate compared to pre-Oct 7 trucking.
Since fighting resumed only 50 trucks have been permitted to enter.
And keep in mind - trucks are now the ONLY way anything gets into Gaza. All the other things - pipelines, powerlines, aircraft, boats, etc. - have ceased. To replace all that would require more than the pre-war 500 trucks a day.
Racist Americans killing people in America has nothing to do with the IDF’s behavior.
Jordan has air dropped food and medical supplies so it’s not the only way of getting supplies in.