If they have no say in the current ruling body then there are questions that need to be asked:
Are they in agreement with their government and therefore suffering the consequences of yet another war with Israel?
Are they subjugated to the rule of tyrants without recourse, forever dammed to a series of wars with their neighbors?
Either way, their current ruling body crossed a line that led to a full scale war that places them in the middle.
I hope there’s another alternative: that they’re currently subjugated to the rule of tyrants with little recourse, but that this won’t go on forever.
Where did you get that fatality number? Move a few hundred thousand out, or frighten them into fleeing, kill a few tens of thousands… it is possible although hope it does not come to pass.
We never should have gone into Iraq, that was a needless war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, “justified” with lies.
And the US is certainly capable of killing a few million people. I really, really hope things never get to that point.
What about Ben-Gvir? Was he part of the crew in 2014? What about Smotrich? I have heard nothing good about either, and both are on record for saying some very nasty, anti-Palestinian things. The government of Israel has lurched rightward in recent years in a manner many people find disturbing.
Half of Gaza was not even alive at the time of that election - sucks when it’s your parents’ decisions that are killing you, isn’t it? Or your grandparents’ decisions.
Hey, I have zero doubt there are, indeed, some Hamas supporters in the Gaza population. They are welcome to fight with Gaza when the IDF arrives. That does not erase the truth that there are a LOT of Gazans who never had any say in who ruled them and who made the decisions that are resulting in such bloodshed.
Pardon my empathy - I regard fellow human beings as fellow human beings.
Gaza has a population of 2.5 million. For less than 2 million to be alive when this is over, 2.5-2 = 0.5.
Israel isn’t kicking Gazans out of Gaza into Israel, nor into Egypt. So for the situation you suggest to come about would require 0.5 million people to die. Which isn’t gonna happen.
They’re both terrible, shitty people who represent everything wrong with Israel.
And you are correct about the right wing rise in Israel. But this war has shredded their credibility. The right wing in Israel runs on a policy of national security. They have gotten to set this policy since Sharon. And they have done a terrible job.
Perhaps it was a mis-translation - I thought the government of Israel told civilian Gazans to get out of Gaza, or at least Gaza City. That sounds a bit like “kicking them out”. Also, the bombing and destruction of so many buildings. Then I hear that neither Israel nor Hamas nor Egypt is allowing anyone out.
Then there’s this “total siege” thing - no power, fuel, food, or water allowed in? I really hope no one is intending that to go on more than a day or two because then people would die. If it goes on a week they would die in significant numbers.
Then there’s… what? About 300,000 IDF ready for a ground assault? I’d like to think everyone in the IDF is a reasonable person but emotions are running high right now and there have been disturbing reports about reprisal type fights/raids, of Israeli-on-Palestinian violence that isn’t being curbed.
It’s seldom the worst-case scenario, but there’s so much potential for things to get really, really bad (as if they weren’t really, really bad already).
Hey, I get it - the US government has its share of terrible, shitty people, too. Some of whom have perpetrated atrocities on other nations. Even more frustrating when you’ve been voting against the terrible, shitty people (but not enough fellow citizens have been) and you have to deal with people assigning collective guilt to your entire nation. It sucks.
A lot remains to be seen. I’d like to think that the racist scum in the Knesset get voted out and saner heads prevail.
Then again, I live in a country that had a failed coup attempt not that long ago and the guy who wanted it is running for the top job again - and a third of country actively want him to get it! Saner heads don’t always prevail, as much as I want them to.
Technical question: Is the likeliest cause of death for Gazans, thirst?
AIUI, Israel has cut off water, and 1 million Gazans are going to have no water to drink other than what they can carry, which won’t be much.
I understand Qatar has been trying to negotiate trading the hostages, but Israel is not said to be negotiating for them, likely believing this futile.
Certainly one hopes that rhetoric is larger than reality and humanitarian corridors allow the passage of food, water and medicines. My personal wish is Israel shows restraint, allows hospitals electricity, and that they are able to quickly achieve military objectives with minimum further disturbance to the civilian population. It’s a terrible situation for everyone. Terrorism is never the answer. I hope the Israelis don’t fall into the trap of disproportionate overreaction, innocent people should receive necessities, and Israel should act lawfully.
This doesn’t sound promising.
I can’t read that article. Is it possible to get a gift link, or a summary?
Of which article?
The first just discusses groups in Canada that seemed to express pleasure or justify heinous acts after the initial incidents. It might be a bit tangential for this thread. The second sounds concerning, and I personally hope a reasonable balance is found and things are resolved quickly, humanely and lawfully.
From The Guardian (edited):
The near certain reality is that a ground invasion will be bloody, and it is possible international political support for Israel, which is high after Hamas’s brutal attack a week ago killed 1,300 Israeli civilians, will dip as more Palestinian civilians are killed or remain trapped without shelter, food or electricity.
There is also the question of what Israel’s medium-term strategy will be if it is able to seize control of the northern half of Gaza. It would be logical to look to the south; an incursion aimed at eliminating Hamas as a controlling force only makes sense if the occupation is total. This was the reasoning, on a larger scale, behind the 20-year, US-led occupation of Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks.
Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, said on Wednesday that Israel’s goal is to “crush and eliminate” Hamas, but as the governing authority in Gaza it is deeply embedded in its society. HA Hellyer, an analyst with the Royal United Services Institute thinktank, said that to take control Israel would have to “destroy all governing capacity in Gaza” and replace it with a military administration while almost certainly battling an ongoing insurgency.
Hasan Alhasan, a Middle East expert at the International Institute of Strategic Studies, went further, asking at an online seminar on Friday whether “there is any viable military strategy short of a total ethnic cleansing of Gaza that would lead to a permanent defeat of Hamas” and if “Israel is walking into a trap set by Hamas”.
Alhasan’s argument is that Hamas can “regenerate in a generation or two” because it can ultimately draw strength from Gaza’s 2.3 million-strong population, with new recruits nurtured on memories of a violent past. A similar point was made earlier this week by the former MI6 chief Sir Alex Younger: “You cannot kill all the terrorists without creating more terrorists.”
The Globe and Mail. The Guardian generally doesn’t paywall their articles.
The author criticizes students at Harvard and York University, an NDP politician, a prominent union leader and an anti racism group for seeming to glorify or justify violence or terrorism. Some of these groups have since apologized or distanced themselves.
Excerpt, The Globe and Mail
Nearly a week after the Hamas assault, when the videos and witness accounts and floods of other evidence had made the nature and extent of the atrocity all too clear, [a university student group] released a statement supporting Palestinian resistance and saying not a word against the deliberate, indiscriminate killing of Israeli innocents. “Recently, in a strong act of resistance,” it said, “the Palestinian people tore down and crossed the illegitimate border fence erected by the settler-colonial apartheid state of so-called Israel.” Such resistance was “justified and necessary.” Hamas itself could not have said it better.
No one is arguing that all criticism of Israel is out of bounds. Its critics have every right to say that they think it has mistreated the Palestinians or denied them their rights. Many liberal Israelis say it themselves. Its critics have every right to claim that Israel is reacting disproportionately to the attacks on its citizens and killing innocent Gazans in the process. Many voices are already saying so and they will become louder as the Israeli assault on Hamas escalates. It is certainly acceptable to point out that the divisive, populist rule of [Benjamin Netanyahu] weakened Israel and made it more vulnerable to this sort of attack. Plenty of Israelis are saying that, too.
What’s wrong is to imply that in some way Israel deserves, or should have expected, the horror inflicted on it; that the attacked are somehow as guilty as the attackers; that terrorism is just another form of fighting back, a predictable response of the powerless to their oppression. What happened in Israel last week was monstrous. If you can’t bring yourself to say that without adding “but” – or, worse, can’t bring yourself to say it at all – you have lost all claim to a hearing from decent people.
Thanks.
I’m not a trained Military Strategist, but it seems to me initiating a costly (in terms of Manpower, Material and Money) ground invasion into a heavily fortified urban environment is a serious misallocation of resources. Now would be the perfect time to deploy the Dreaded Jewish Space Lasers.
The water supply has been turned back on.
Meanwhile, over at Breitbart, I just observed no small number of people arguing that God gave the Israelis ALL that land, and this was justification for whatever was needed to push the people out of Gaza. When it was pointed out that this was pretty clearly against the “Don’t kill” part of Christian teachings, the argument was that this was god’s will, clearly stated in the Bible, and “don’t kill” doesn’t apply here.
There was a remarkable amount of agreement with this sentiment. To wit, that god is OK with Israel killing all the Palestinians to fulfill his wishes.
I know Breitbart is fringe, but it isn’t fringe enough.
That’s what us normal people like to call “Hamas Logic”.
It’s no more inconsistent than the rest of the bible. God is just hunky-dory with killing people (including babies) when the mood strikes him.
Like sending a bear to tear apart children for mocking a bald prophet.
Yeah, “don’t kill” comes with a hundred exceptions. Don’t kill - except, if your son is rebellious, you must stone him. When someone was collecting sticks on the Sabbath, the Israelites had to stone him. The Amalekites needed to be genocided. And…
So it’s not at all out of line for Biblically-minded people to think God would condone the clearing-out of all of Gaza.