Of course.
The supplies were getting in before the war under normal commerce. That changed with the war. The supply chain is now war dependent and that is Hamas’s doing.
Do those reports actually say that Israel did NOT capture of kill military leaders and/or dismantle military infrastructure? Or are they simply detailing humanitarian crises and advocating for ceasefire? I have read a few of the articles on the Gaza situation on the web sites of HRW and AI. HRW does not seem to contradict the IDF’s claims at all. AI says they investigated certain specific strikes by the IDF and disagree with their military necessity, but that still doesn’t contradict the claims that @Babale mentioned in his post.
The UN I don’t even bother with. The credibility of their agencies regarding anything Israel-related is absolute zero. AI’s and HRW’s is also in question, but I’m more open-minded about them as a source of contrary information. But the claims about commanders and militants eliminated or tunnels destroyed are not disputed by these sources.
…the supplies were getting through during the war. The hospitals were operating until the IDF laid siege on each hospital. This is undisputed. The IDF shut all of these hospitals down. I’ve documented this throughout the thread. All of the evidence has been provided. Feel free to name a hospital and I’ll walk you through the process on how it was taken down.
If you have any evidence to support your assertions, please feel free to post it in this thread.
The post I addressed claimed only six Battalion commanders had been killed. Six. Out of 20,000 dead people, most of them women and children, only six of them were mid-level leadership. No senior leadership. Was that the number you were referring too?
The infrastructure in that post claimed 800 tunnel shafts were identified and 500 destroyed. Some of the “tunnel shafts” that the IDF presented in propaganda videos were identified as normal things when analysed. An example here:
How many of the other “tunnels” were really Hamas tunnels, or were they water reservoirs or building elevator shafts or a septic tank?
The other claim is that hospitals were military bases because allegedly in past wars they had been used to “wage war against Israel.” That isn’t good enough to make them legitimate targets in this war.
And why would Hamas be using hospitals as bases in the first place? The only reason to (and the reason given during the “confession”) is because they thought Israel wouldn’t target hospitals. But it became apparent from the very early days of the war that Israel had zero problems targeting hospitals, and the pattern of shooting and bombing hospitals, putting hospitals under siege, taking them over and arresting and kicking people out of the hospitals was hardly a secret. So what military and strategic advantage was there to having bases in hospitals?
We can see that at the very least at the time each hospital was put under siege Hamas were not using those hospitals as bases. Because apart from a handful of weapons that could have been staged, and a televised confession, the evidence of these “bases” has been severely lacking.
Here’s a quick question. I mentioned that 100 people were killed by a strike at Jabalia refugee camp a few days ago, and 90 people a few days before that. How many of those people killed were confirmed as Hamas fighters? What was the target? Because every public statement from IDF spokespeople have made it clear that they aren’t tracking these numbers. That this isn’t a metric that is important to them. This was the cite quoted up thread:
They used a ratio. A ratio he described as “tremendous, tremendously positive, and perhaps unique in the world.” Does that sound accurate to you?
If you can find better numbers, either for people or infrastructure, feel free to link to it here.
But the infrastructure targeted includes everything from bakeries to water reservoirs. Civilian infrastructure. It’s been very deliberate. Calculated.
You don’t have to bother with them. But has there been any information that I’ve cited from UN agencies that you consider to be outright lies or misinformation? Please feel free to link to anything I’ve cited and show me that they are lies or propaganda equivalent to anything the IDF have produced.
The other sources, as well as the UN, outline the scale of destruction and the humanitarian cost of the war Israel has waged. Crops razed. Cemeteries destroyed. Centuries-old churches and Mosques destroyed. Records and archives destroyed. Neighbourhoods flattened. People left to die because there is no longer a functional healthcare system, no ambulances to pick them up, no hospital to take them to.
And we can compare that to claims about commanders and militants eliminated or tunnels destroyed and we have maybe six mid-level commanders killed, a guess based on vibes on how many militants have been killed, wild unconfirmed claims about tunnels.
And if we accept those IDF claims are true: then the scale of death and destruction in Gaza break all of the rules on proportionality. You can’t tell me that all of this was worth it to take out a handful of mid-level commanders and a bunch ot tunnels. This was supposed to be a war on Hamas. It wasn’t supposed to be a war on tunnels.
The latest update from the war:
The death toll is now over 20,000 people, although I suspect it is becoming increasingly difficult to keep these numbers accurate as systems and access fall apart. From Tedros:
The latest flash update:
More at the link.
From the AP:
…the Washington Post has just published an investigation into Al Shifa Hospital. I can’t read it as its paywalled, but if you are subscribed the link to it is here:
The article is summarised here in Rolling Stone which, for some, may also require signing up:
A reminder: Al Shifa was the hospital that Israel made the strongest case that this was a Hamas base. They have alleged that other hospitals were also Hamas bases, but the evidence that those hospitals were Hamas bases were substantially less than what they produced for Al Shifa.
The only “real” evidence that any hospital were bases was the televised “confession” by the director of Kamal Adwan. But there isn’t even any physical evidence that supports that confession.
I think we can put the “hospitals were Hamas bases” to rest now.
…sorry for the multiple posts: but I just saw this:
More at the link, including interactive graphics.
Here is a gift link
…thank you.
During the first six weeks of the war in Gaza, Israel routinely used one of its biggest and most destructive bombs in areas it designated safe for civilians, according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times.
The video investigation focuses on the use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area of southern Gaza where Israel had ordered civilians to move for safety.
Thanks for the link. Demonstrates that the IDF had a plan in place to depopulate Gaza.
I believe I saw in the Washington Post this AM, that there are groups in Israel already proposing that they move back into their Gaza settlements based on a right of return.
I saw an interview back late October, with a settler, who looked forward to moving back to Gaza when the Palestinians was out. It was so much nicer than the West Bank.
Here it is. It’s in Danish, but Google translate will help, and the videos are in English.
…from Paula Gaviria Betancur, Special Rapporteur on the human rights of internally displaced persons, published by the United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner:
More at the link.
Many people argued at the start of the thread that “forcible transfer” wasn’t the end goal here. I wonder if any of them, considering the tactics and strategies deployed since the resumption of hostilities, has made them reconsider.
It’s been obvious from the beginning that the Israeli goal is to herd all Gazans into concentration camps on the southern border and then push for deportation as the most humane solution to the miserable plight of the refugees.
Good plan, but it’s not working. The IDF has failed to depopulate the north. Now citizens, finding the south worse than Gaza City, have returned home. All the IDF has done is murder 1% of the population and create chaos.
What on Earth are you talking about? Obvious to whom, conspiracy theory aficionados? That was never the IDF’s plan, and as you point out correctly, it is not what is happening on the ground.
Never before have I seen anyone say “They said they don’t want to do X, then X did not happen; clearly this is evidence that they tried and failed to do X”.
It’s not obvious at all. If you want to throw conspiracy theory around start with Hamas. Their long term goal has always been the destruction of Israel. There was no clearly achievable victory with their attack. It appears they’re trying to draw Islamic countries into a regional war.and there’s not a hint of concern for their own people. It has generated a state of war in the Red Sea which endangers all the Mediterranean traffic through the Suez Canal. It has generated Hamas attempted attacks in Europe.
This is what happens when you vote in a terrorist group with the intent to destroy your neighbor. It’s sad that Gaza is the battle ground for Hamas but their war machine made Gaza’s infrastructure their base of operation.
Hamas needs to be defeated. It’s being backed by a regime that routinely calls for the destruction of the US and they are in the process of gaining a nuclear weapon.
I’m pretty upset with the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, but… No, that has never been obvious.
Actually I agree with @Crane . It seems obvious that the IDF definition of “destroy Hamas” equals “destroy everyone in Gaza,” i.e. kill or expel everyone who lives there. Everywhere the IDF told people to go has been bombed and people are starving, have no medical care, etc. And I’m sure Israel has no intention of rebuilding everything they destroyed so that whoever might remain can return to some kind of home. Israel is going to put the burden on the international community.
It should have been. Israel has been promoting it.
I think you need to recalibrate your obviousometer.
Why it’s almost as if the terrorist faction with no regard for human life was using them as human shields or something.