Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

…from the Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer, World Food Programme, today:

He’s talking about this:

Bolding mine.

The estimates are about 85 people were killed today, including this incident just seeking food. About double the daily average. And that doesn’t include people killed in other attacks around Gaza, it normally takes a while to get those numbers, however reporting is so fragmented because the country is so broken everything is an undercount anyway.

It doesn’t include people dying of starvation. We know that just with children, that number is about 40 this month so far that we know of. But for all of the people still trapped in militarised zones, still trapped in the north, we simply don’t know what is happening.

US propaganda was inching over against Netanyahu on todays’ Morning Joe.

…from Jan Egeland, Secretary General of the Norwegian Refugee Council.

Gaza Maps shows the latest displacement:

So I’ll wait until the next flash update to confirm the percentages, but it now looks like the people of Gaza have been squeezed into at the very least less than 10% of the land. Millions of people, mostly in tents, limited to no reliable access to food, water, aid.

This of course doesn’t account for probably tens of thousands who haven’t been able to evacuate and are trapped throughout the country in militarised zones. Some of those zones like Rafah have been practically flattened. Many families were trapped there. Many are missing.

Scattered reports that at least 20 died from starvation over the last 48 hours. That tracks with the number I quoted earlier, both from the MOH, however the reporting I suspect will be haphazard over the coming months. Because the reporting will only cover deaths that are known about. But people dying, isolated in tents and buried by family won’t be recorded in the official numbers for a while, if ever. We won’t know the true death toll in Gaza for years, perhaps decades after this is all over.

But the experts on the ground are all saying the same thing: we’ve crossed a threshold. And people are now just going to start dying.

We all watched as this happened. We voted for it. Funded it. Supported it. And this is on us. I’m quietly resigned that this is going to happen. I’ve gotten over my “stages of grief” and am oddly detached emotionally over what we are about to witness. I’m quietly hoping that Israel will do the right thing and let the aid agencies do their jobs. But I don’t think that will happen. They are committed to this.

Sadly true.

Blind support of the IDF no longer yields value to the US. I believe our propaganda will begin to emphasize Israeli persecution of Christians.

…a joint statement from the UK and 25 international partners

More at the link including calls for the hostages to be released.

Signed by * foreign ministers of Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK.

Not signed by the USA.

Moderating:

After a somewhat lengthy discussion, the mods feel these posts are heading towards Abhorrent/Hate speech (explicitly supporting atrocities) and that all posters should be mindful of such going forward.

For reference:
Abhorrent views. If you express yourself in a way we consider to be beyond the pale of civil discussion, whether in style or substance, we will warn you to stop, specifying what it is we want you to cease doing, on penalty of losing your posting privileges.

…today in Gaza, the IDF raided the World Health Organisation and have kidnapped one of their staff.

WHO operations compromised following attacks on warehouse and facility sheltering staff and families in Deir al Balah, Gaza.

Today in Gaza, the AFP journalists organisation warned that this could be the first time they’ve ever lost a journalist to starvation.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/afp-journalists-in-gaza-at-risk-of-starvation-warns-journalists-association/3637836

Today in Gaza, the IDF bombed a kindergarten.
Twitter link, graphic (but blurred) footage.

Today in Gaza the Official account of IDF International Spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel Nadav Shoshani released a propaganda video on Twitter where he claims that civilians are “advancing” towards soldiers when it’s plainly obvious they are advancing on stockpiles of food. And he acts as if the solders are showing incredible restraint as the order to “not engage” and “do not shoot” is yelled out over and over again.

It’s almost as if they have to be reminded, “we are filming this! Don’t shoot this time! Wait for the cameras to be turned off! Hold on…WE ARE STILL FILMING!”

I mean, nice words and all, finally, but I don’t see any threats of action or sanctions there.

Serious question: what would be some useful and effective sanctions? Tech exports? Nobody wants to see Israeli stores empty of food and medicine. But what would put real pressure on the Israeli economy and, therefore, the government?

Basically everything BDS advocates for. That’s why Israel govt. hates BDS, because if followed globally, it would be very, very effective, as disinvestment was against Apartheid.

Boycotts are facilitated by urging the public to avoid purchasing goods made by Israeli companies, divestment by urging banks, pension funds, international companies, etc. to stop doing business in Israel, and sanctions by pressuring governments to end military trade and free-trade agreements with Israel and to suspend Israel’s membership in international forums

That’s not going to happen - other than grain, Israel is very self-sufficient. And I’m OK with not sanctioning subsistence grain imports to them.

Because deliberately starving people is the kind of barbaric genocidal action only practiced by the worst of humanity, you know.

There are no targets of military value in Gaza. There is no organized resistance. There is no war.

It’s time for the US to allow UN condemnation of Israel. And it is time to slow walk military support enough to get their attention.

…I am, unfortunately, under no illusions about what that document means.

It means they are trying to get ahead of the story.

They know better than most of us that the deliberate starvation policy has reached the point of no return, that Israel are almost certainly not going to relent, and that a humanitarian catastrophe is inevitable, and they want to give the appearances that they disapprove. Because the UK government literally welcomed Israel’s air force chief just a few days ago. And reportedly sent another spy plane to Gaza just after releasing the statement. There isn’t a change in policy. Its business as usual.

What I would suggest is to pretend you aren’t dealing with Israel.

Let’s instead pretend it’s Iran. Iran has stopped all food from entering Israel. They’ve set up concentration zones and have forced the entire population into about 10% of the land. This morning, Iran raided the World Health Organisation in Tel Aviv and kidnapped one of the workers, forced the others to march to safety elsewhere with their families, and destroyed one of their warehouses.

Short of military action: what sort of useful and effective sanctions do you think should be applied to Iran? Because whatever sanctions you think would be appropriate there, absolutely should be appropriate to put on Israel right now.

And no, we don’t want to see Israeli stores empty of food and medicine. But people have started to die of starvation in Gaza right now. According to the MOH, at least 20 in the last 48 hours. Every single person I follow in Gaza right now is starving. Most talk about not having any food for days. Earlier, I talked about an AFP reporter who no longer has the ability to walk. Reports of people collapsing in the streets. Doctors fainting while performing surgery.

And as for medicine: you know that it’s been like this in Gaza since February 2024, right?

This was over a year BEFORE the near total siege Israel have imposed on Gaza this year. It was “beyond words” back in 2024. Imagine what it is like right now.

This isn’t a dig at you. But I’m still beyond shocked that people still don’t understand the scale of humanitarian disaster we are looking at here. On average, at least ten children are amputated every single day. Many will be operated on without any painkillers. And it’s been that way for over a year and a half.

It simply inconceivable that a global community that continues to fund, arm and support Israels actions in Gaza would ever impose sanctions on Israel to the degree it would empty stores of food and medicine. It isn’t going to happen. It isn’t a realistic thing to be concerned about.

That isn’t to say BDS wouldn’t be an effective global strategy. It’s just that IMHO the countries that mostly matter, like most of Europe, the US, etc, have very effectively targeted and attacked proponents of BDS, even in some cases outlawing them. But along with targeting arms sales, it’s probably the best place to start.

Yes, Trump has outlawed this to the extent he has been able to do so.

We certainly would not want to inconvenience Israelis. The friendly folks who criminalize the use of rain water by Palestinians. Those pesky Palestinians want to squander water on their family farms when it is badly needed for ‘settlement’ swimming pools. Let’s get our priorities straight.

Netanyahu has made Gaza an Israeli problem. Only a majority of Israeli citizens can stop him. So far they are failing to do so.

Military action (though not a formal declaration of war) would be much simpler, more effective, and more likely given the massive economic, military, and political interest the U.S. has in Israel. We have substantial military assets in the region to stage a campaign. Some of the domestic U.S. support for Israel would be for humanitarian or Zionist purposes, and that would get media time, but I do not think that would be the primary or even secondary driver of U.S. policy in that hypothetical.

Some anti-BDS laws predate the Trump I presidency. For example, Florida started maintaining an official blacklist of companies who boycott Israel in 2016, notably it includes Unilever (brands: Dove soaps, Axe deodorant, Vaseline petrolium jelly, Ben & Jerry’s ice cream, Klondike ice cream, Breyers ice cream, Popsicle brand, etc).

~Max

…yeah, this isn’t just a Trump thing.

This is a bipartisan thing. Both Republicans and Democrats. And that includes broad support from both parties in congress.

They’ve never been able to “get it over the line.” But this isn’t a party-line thing. This is what Chuck Schumer had to say back in 2018:

I do not know exactly how much water is wasted in Israel, but normal rates are higher than in, say, the U.S. Why do you assume they are wasting so much water? Is water being illegally diverted from municipal and agricultural systems to fill up swimming pools?

I do not think the “majority of Israeli citizens” give a shit about Gaza. But I am certain they care about their water bill, grocery bill, traffic jams, gas prices, their Amazon packages not arriving on time, basically whatever a random person in your town cares about, there is a good chance a random Israeli cares about it too. Which is why I asked which sanctions will put pressure on the Israeli economy. Also, if Netanyahu loses the support of the labor unions and they call for a strike, that would be that (well, it’s never so simple, but I doubt the government could survive a general strike).

To the extent the U.S. dictates to Israel what is what, I do not think the majority of Americans give a shit about Gaza, either. Surely even less than Israelis, some of whom live near Gaza, know people from Gaza, and have even been to Gaza. Not so much young people.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202305_parched

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202305_parched

To the extent the U.S. dictates to Israel what is what, I do not think the majority of Americans give a shit about Gaza, either. Surely even less than Israelis, some of whom live near Gaza, know people from Gaza, and have even been to Gaza. Not so much young people.

Considering the near unconditional support the US has given Israel (both the Trump AND the Biden administration) it really is time that Americans started to give a shit about the atrocities its government are funding in their name.

…this propaganda is insidious.

From the Jerusalem Post:

I’ll be honest, if I were there, and senior IDF officials were turning around and accusing ME of being the cause of famine in Gaza I might take a bit of a beat as well. Just a tad. Probably 20 seconds. Maybe longer.

My jaw would literally drop.

Imagine actually publishing this. As if it were some sort of objective observation.

Just “alleviate it” already. Let in the tents. The baby formula. The feminine hygiene products. The water, fuel, medicine.

Well, yes: it’s been well documented that the routes the IDF say are secure are NOT secure. They are controlled by Israeli backed militias and gangs and UN convoys are regularly attacked and hijacked on these routes.

There will come a point where there will be so many dead Palestinian children from hunger that these lies won’t work any more. But sadly, we are not at that point.

This is absolutely sick. And shame on the Jerusalem Post for publishing this garbage without significant push back.

I doubt the majority of Americans even know where Israel is. Maybe a slim majority could point to it on a map.

Maybe.

ETA: Pew, 2011, n=1168 US adults > 18 years old.

~Max