They offered an opinion on whether the US should have withdrawn from Germany in 1944? Fascinating, but you appear to have linked the wrong opinion, in that case - it’s about 2024 and an entirely different part of the world.
They did, because you didn’t mention “due process” once when you first brought this up; you only talked about them being “women and children”, until Puzzlegal pointed out that a 16 year old girl can be terrorists and other posters showed that the vast majority if not all of these children involved are over 15. Then and only then did we move on to due process.
I’ve always bought this up. Every time we have this conversation.
I never EVER suggested that a 16 year old girl couldn’t be a terrorist. That’s a strawman.
I’ve asked you which of the children currently in detention ARE terrorists. Because that question leads into the obvious issue of due process. The two are linked. You won’t be able to show me which one are terrorist because there HAS been no due process.
You said that since it’s Palestinian land it should be completely uncontroversial that it go back to Palestinians. I pointed out the flaw in this argument: by your exact logic, German land occupied by the Allies during WW2 should have immediately been turned over to Germany. I’m asking if that’s really what you think, or if perhaps it is not quite so self evident that Xian soil should be returned to X under all circumstances and there are in fact cases where it should be very controversial.
This you?
How am I supposed to read that quote other than as a suggestion that it is absurd and ridiculous to think that “children”, aka people who are less than 18 years old, can possibly be terrorists?
As you know, the list of who these minors are is not public. If you want to assume that anyone the IDF hasn’t publically named is an innocent three year old, I guess I can’t stop you, but that’s not a reasonable assumption in reality.
And in your mind that means that none of them are terrorists? Should we also assume that all Confederates who Lincoln caught after suspending habeas corpus were innocents murdered in Lincoln’s attempt to genocide the South? Actually, that’s a shit analogy because the Confederates were traitorous US citizens, not members of a foreign nation. Do you think Ukranians offer “due process” to Russian troops?
No you didn’t. I didn’t say anything about “immediate.”
Yep.
It was a simple yes or no question. You weren’t supposed to read anything into it at all. Are you claiming the detained children are terrorists? Yes or no?
I’m talking about ALL of the minors currently in detention by Israel. If they are terrorists, then they’ve been through some sort of due process. One would expect the terrorist incident they were involved in would be public. That there would have been a trial, and that this would all be a matter of public record.
Because if there hasn’t been this process: if we aren’t talking about any specific terrorist act, then you can’t call them terrorists.
Yeah, that’s kind of what one would expect from the so-called “only democracy in the Middle East.” Innocent until proven guilty.
One would hope those Russian troops are being treated according to the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian law.
Which leads to the question, then: do you think these children are Hamas troops? Do you have any evidence for this?
And if they are: then the Conventions and IHL apply here.
Cool, then I agree the land should go back to Palestinians eventually, once Hamas is fully removed from power and after a transitionary period.
The detained teenages are terrorists; since it doesn’t sound like any are under 15, I don’t know that I’d use the term “children”.
What? That is not a logically sound statement.
They could be terrorists who have not been through due process
They could be non-terrorists who did not go through due process
They could be terrorists who did go through due process
They could be non-terrorists who went through due process and were found guilty of something else
They could be non-terrorists who went through due process and then were left in prison as a miscarriage of justice
Your if-then statement falls apart.
Why on Earth would one expect that? Do you know the identity of every Hamas member involved with launching a rocket at civilian areas? Do you think that’s public info?
Sure I can. I can’t say that they’re terrorists who were convicted of terrorism in a court of law, but I didn’t say that to begin with, did I?
Can we call Osama Bin Laden a terrorist? He never had due process or was convicted in a court of law.
Can you quote the Israeli law that guarantees those kinds of protections to non citizens who are actively taking up arms against the country?
Can you quote a law from any country that guarantees due proces to members of an enemy nation that’s actively involved in armed hostilities?
It seems wild that what you would expect is something no country on Earth would do.
…IE, not due process. Thank you for admitting this.
“Heba was arrested when she was only 14 and was detained for eight months. Three years later, she is now preparing for her school exams but vividly remembers her time in prison.”
That was in 2020. Yes, they do detain people under the age of 15 in inhumane conditions.
And teenagers are children.
Nah, it doesn’t.
Because if they were terrorists, you could point to the terrorist incidents they were locked up for. I don’t even think the Israeli authorities are claiming that they all are terrorists. There must be some sort of process that tells us why they are locked up. That’s what democracies do.
So why are they being detained?
Launching rockets at civilian areas doesn’t automatically make you are terrorist. If it did: then every single Israeli responsible for flattening Gaza are terrorists.
Except you don’t know why these children have been detained at all. Most of them not only haven’t been convicted of anything: they haven’t been charged. How can you call them terrorists when you don’t even know why they are there?
Unlike the children being held by Israel: Bin Laden was indicted for murder and conspiracy. He publicly boasted of his crimes. I have no problem with you calling him a terrorist.
What have the children being held by Israel been charged with?
If they are being accused of terrorism, then they are subject to the relevant terrorism statutes and due process. If they are soldiers then they are subject to the Geneva Conventions.
Wait. What?
Are these children terrorists or soldiers? Because if they are soldiers they are subject to the Geneva conventions, and Israel are almost certainly in violation of the conventions by using them as leverage for other demands. Are they accused terrorists? Then Israel are almost certainly violating International Humanitarian Law (and if you look at the history of Israel locking up children, they’ve been doing this for decades) by holding them with no due process.
But whether they are soldiers or alleged terrorists would mean two very different things. Which is it?
And the thing is: this isn’t my burden to prove.
Just like how you haven’t been able to show that the Hospitals are Hamas, that the Journalists are Hamas, the dead paramedics are Hamas, that UNRWA are Hamas, you haven’t been able to prove that the children in detention are Hamas.
If the children are actually Hamas: then prove it.
The below Tweet talks about how the recovery process has begun: 81 bodies so far in areas Israeli forces have withdrawn from so far. I’ve spoiled because there is video of ambulance crew moving bodies. Further down the page are skeletons lying in the streets. Expect the death toll to rise substantially over the next few weeks.
Are they murdering citizens in Israel or illegal settlers in the West Bank? How many Israelis are in jail for killing west bank Palestinians? Serious question. I really don’t know.
Yeah, we covered this earlier in this very thread. Over the years, there have been a few people under 15. Those cases were few and far between, and it’s not like a 14 year is incapable of terrorism either. It doesn’t look like any of the prisoners who are part of this hostage deal are under 15, so this really has absolutely nothing to do with the initial statement that Israel is releasing 2,000 terrorists as part of this peace deal.
Sure, but when you say They’re arresting the CHILDREN!!!1111ELEVEN!!!11, the image you are trying to invoke is not seventeen years and three hundred sixty four day old Hamas fighters.
If someone is a member of Hamas, works with Hamas on propaganda, makes explosives for Hamas, and carries rockets up to the front line for Hamas, they are either combatants or DPH whether or not anyone can point to a “specific incident”.
Because they are Hamasniks.
Unless you’re here to tell me that Hamas rockets are precision guided, that’s utter BS. You cannot compare blind firing rockets with precision strikes on military targets.
Also, melodramatic language outside, Gaza isn’t flattened (although if Israel wanted to flatten it that would be well within Israel’s capability). Gaza is, in fact, still there, along with the vast majority of its population. Almost as if wiping out Gaza was never the goal!
Speak for yourself.
…ok? And? So what? They aren’t being held under criminal charges. They are being held because they are either combatants or civilians who are directly participating in hostilities (DPH). They don’t have to be charged.
They do have to be charged if Israel wants to prosecute and punish them for illegally participating in hostilities, but Israel doesn’t have to do that; it can just detain them to get them out of the way of hostilities.
…there are releasing 2000 Palestinians. Some of them might be terrorists or former terrorists. But many of them, perhaps most of them, are not.
The thing is: you are doing the very opposite. That somehow just because they might be seventeen, they aren’t really still children.
But they are still children.
“Why am I spelling out the obvious? Because the fact that Palestinian children are children doesn’t seem obvious to many in the western media. … A few minutes after this, Hunt interjected to say that she had “misspoke” and noted that Hind was not a woman, she was “a five-year-old girl”. We all word things imperfectly sometimes. … Part of this dehumanization is an inability to see Palestinian children as children. … Childhood is synonymous with innocence. Israel, which arrested between 500 and 700 Palestinian children aged 12-17 a year before October 7, 2023, (that number has only increased now) has consistently pushed the notion that there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian… There have also been numerous reports of violence of a sexual nature…These reports tend to be countered by pro-Israel voices that insist none of these children should be considered innocent.”
Do you think there is any possibility that some of these children might be innocent?
And how many of the children detained by Israel have done this?
Which ones?
Most of those “precision strikes” killed civilians, targeting civilian infrastructure. I very much CAN and WILL compare them. You don’t get a pass just because you’ve got a bigger budget. In fact: it makes it worse. When you kill seven people and six of them were children: you know you are killing children. You just don’t care.
Flattened.
Flattened.
Flattened.
Flattened.
Flattened.
Israel has been detaining Palestinians for arbitrary reasons for decades. Many, if not most of those detainees are probably innocent. They don’t get the chance to prove it though because many don’t even know what they’ve been charged with.
And many are captured for precisely these purposes: to be used in exchange for other hostages. They are themselves hostages.
And they are kept in cruel and inhumane conditions.
It was morning in late June when the Israeli army jeep pulled up next to some teenage boys who were walking near an aid distribution site in southern Gaza.
Warning: This story contains details of sexual abuse and torture.
The soldiers told the boys to put their hands up, and when they complied, they were stripped naked.
The boys allege this was just the start of a month-long ordeal that would see them tortured and sexually abused in Israeli custody.
Detain them. Torture them. And sometimes sexually assault them. For Palestinians being held by Israel over the decades, beatings, humiliation and torture are almost a universal experience.
“The Israeli government says these teenage prisoners are actually all terrorists”, without accompanying evidence, is no more convincing than “Hamas says they’re all innocent”.
…just to be clear: my position isn’t that “all Palestinian teenage prisoners are innocent.”
It’s that: we cannot know. Not when the entire system of Palestinian detention is as corrupted as it is right now, as it has been for decades.
For example Mohammed Zaher Ibrahim is a Palestinian American who was detained at the age of 15 for over six months for allegedly throwing rocks. He is, as far as I’m aware, still in custody. I wouldn’t consider him a terrorist. Nor would I consider the two Gazan boys picked up by the Israeli army jeep in the story I just cited as terrorists either.
If you want to make a point, it would be helpful to quote specifically what you’re responding to. I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re disagreeing with or criticizing, since that post made several different arguments.
Clashes erupt between Hamas forces and armed clan members in Gaza City
At least 27 people have been killed in fierce clashes between Hamas security forces and armed members of the Dughmush family in Gaza City, in one of the most violent internal confrontations since the end of major Israeli operations in the enclave.
However, a source from the Dughmush family told local media that Hamas forces had come to a building that once served as the Jordanian Hospital, where the family had taken refuge after their homes in the al-Sabra neighbourhood were destroyed in the recent Israeli attack.
The source claimed that Hamas sought to evict the family from the building to establish a new base for its forces there.
Hamas has recalled about 7,000 members of its security forces to reassert control over areas of Gaza recently vacated by Israeli troops, according to local sources.
Reports suggest armed Hamas units have already deployed across several districts, some wearing civilian clothes and others in the blue uniforms of the Gaza police. The Hamas media office denied it was deploying “fighters in the streets”.
The live hostages have been released. Hamas is trying some kind of fuckery with the dead bodies, they will be returning 4 instead of the 28 they agreed to (surprising absolutely no one, of course; if anything, I’m surprised they didn’t try something with the live hostages).