Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

I always had the sense that part of the Zionist movement that lead to the wars that created modern Israel was the notion that Jews weren’t safe anywhere in the world and they needed that refuge lest they be wiped out elsewhere. Given the historical context of the time that was an understandable outlook for the survivors of WWII fleeing Europe. However, it just ain’t so - the US and Canada have been excellent refuges for the Jews. Probably other countries, too, but those are the two I have any ability to speak about.

If I had to flee the US due to those tiki-torch Nazis my first choice would be Canada, not Israel.

Yes, I actually HAVE been told I should want to live there. I’ve been told that by a few Jews. I have been told that by a LOT of evangelical Christians but of course their reasoning is that they need a modern Israel for their end-times death-orgy to commence so there’s another reason not to make that move…

As for being an “insurance policy”… a “place to go” that’s under continual siege to the point they have to build something like the Iron Dome is not a safe place to be, it’s a battlefield waiting to happen.

I’m not talking about people chanting “gas the Jews”, I’m talking about people yelling “Free Palestine!” as they attempt to cause me harm.

Somewhere to go? Really? The Chief Rabbinate of Israel would not recognize my mother’s conversion to Judaism. So to them I’m not a real Jew, although “Jewish enough” to be granted “residence” in Israel. Wow, skippy. Although it’s my understanding that if I had moved there while young enough I could still be required to serve in the IDF… just not marry a nice Jewish man. Jewish enough to be forced to bleed and possibly die for the country, but not Jewish enough to marry their sons. Or really anyone - not being a member of any of the designated recognized religions I would have no legal right to marry anyone in Israel, I’d have to leave the country to get a civil marriage in another nation. Which is the sort of thing I mean by second-class citizenship. To the Chief Rabbinate I’ll never be Jewish enough to be a full and equal citizen to a “real” Jew.

So how is that an “insurance policy” for me? Like I said - I’d try someplace like Canada first, where I have an actual chance to become a full citizen in time.

It’s not that it can’t happen here so much as Israel is not a guaranteed haven, either. They have marvelous anti-missile technology (although not perfect) but imagine how nasty it would be if it wasn’t there or failed. Or if all the Arab nations, backed by other nations as well, decided to steam-roll over Israel. There’s a lot of things that could happen but right now Jews in the US don’t have rockets fall on their heads or organized raid by Hamas on their neighborhoods. Just as Palestinians in the US enjoy equal citizenship rights to any other qualifying immigrant and don’t have to worry about aerial bombardment by the IDF.

Yes, there is always a problem of bigots getting into power, and not just for Jews or Palestinians or Muslims. That is a risk everywhere.

Yes.

Anywhere.

Currently there are people in power in the Middle East with stated goals of ethnic cleansing and even extermination. On both sides of the current war. Right now Israel strikes me as a more dangerous place to be than North America. Could that change? Of course it could. But I can’t predict the future, I can only deal with the present.

How’d that work out in the '40s?

Hell, how did it work out in Rwanda? The UN actually had a presence there, and there were people pushing hard to intervene to stop the genocide. The people weren’t well armed (machetes did most of the killing), and it would have taken only a few thousand soldiers to stop the bloodshed.

In the end, the ‘international community’ did nothing.

That’s like fleeing the Nazis by going to Poland :rofl:

Here’s a hint, if they’re yelling “Free Palestine” while chasing around Jews who have nothing to do with Israel, Free Palestine is a dog whistle for Gas the Jews. That’s why supposedly “pro-Palestinian” protests often devolve into firebombing synagogues or chanting anti-semitic slogans.

You were certainly Jewish enough for the Nazis.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel is composed of old fashioned fool with an archaic sense of what Judaism is. The same anti-Zionists who opposed the creation of Israel because they feared that the Jewish people would adopt a national identity rather than a religious one. The fact that they have as much influence as they do is a travesty.

That Israel leaves marriages to religious authorities without providing a fully secular alternative is a failing of Zionist ideals (per the tenants of actual Zionism, not the post-hoc joke that is Religious Zionism) and something that will hopefully change soon. But it hardly makes you a second class citizen, and I say this as someone who married a non-Jewish woman and so face exactly the same questions.

Also, in a move that mostly benefits gay couples but also interfaith ones, the supreme court rules in 2022 that online marriages from other nations are valid and must be recognized, soany Israelis who want to marry someone the rabbis frown upon can just file the paperwork online.

Moderating:

Let’s get back on track. I think we’ve done enough history for the time being. Either people are convinced or they aren’t, but pulling up yet more history is unlikely to change more minds.

And there have been a few too many “your opinion is noted”. It’s sounding passive aggressive.

There is actually news that folks might want to discuss. At least, I got news alerts today that Israel has started the ground war in earnest. So let’s look more to the present, and discuss this war, and not just delve into all the things that led up to it.

Thanks

With that mod note I deleted without posting my latest screed (you’re welcome) and I wish a Shabbat Shalom to anyone who may be observing such and Salaam/Peace to everyone else.

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Read the modnote, it is in yellow and hard to miss.

Yes sir.

The international community has reached the “stern finger-wag” stage.

https://www.cnn.com/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-friday-intl-hnk/index.html

Today’s UN is a deeply unserious body. The Kims would be ruling the entire Korean peninsula if they’d been like this in 1950.

The more I read and think about it, the more I lean towards the position that an Israeli invasion of Gaza in order to destroy Hamas is the wrong decision… not because it’s morally or ethically wrong (though that is part of it – not that it necessarily is wrong, but that the correct moral balance based on the collateral damage likely will be extraordinarily hard to achieve), but because this Israeli government is incapable of making the right decisions in order to correctly balance risk, civilian casualties, and long-term security thinking.

I think it’s a wrong decision because i think it will make Gazans even less likely to want to do business with Israel in the future. And other Arabs, as well. But i don’t know if there are any right decisions.

I don’t think there are any right decisions here, just bad and less bad.

I am not convinced the land invasion of Gaza is among the less bad, especially as it is likely to be conducted by the current Israeli government.

I’m astounded by the Patriotism of Israelis. Ex soldiers that already did their service are volunteering to leave America and join the upcoming war.

It chokes me up because they’re leaving family and comfortable lives in America. They know the risk that it could get them killed.

The delay in invading Gaza must be helpful in training these volunteers and adjusting back to military service.

Former Israeli prime minister Naftali Bennett thinks a full-scale invasion of Gaza is just what Hamas wants. He urges Israel instead to isolate northern Gaza and wait out Hamas fighters.

(The full article is paywalled)

Militarily, the plan he sketches begins by having Israel establish a security zone in Gaza two kilometers deep while also cutting the territory in half, somewhere between Gaza City and Khan Younis. Already, nearly 800,000 Gazans have fled from north to south despite efforts by Hamas to keep them in place. Two humanitarian corridors, subject to Israeli controls, will allow civilians still trapped in the north to move south. Israel will permit water, food and medicine to reach the south and will create medical and humanitarian safe havens in the buffer zone.
This is the most manpower- and firepower-intensive part of Bennett’s plan, but it does not involve a thrust into the heart of Gaza’s cities. It leaves the north of Gaza completely cut off — above all, of energy.
[…]
“I don’t want to get into a Viet Cong-type war of tunnels,” Bennett says. “I want to surprise them by letting them dry out in the tunnels. Imagine a Hamas terrorist waiting in one of those tunnels with his weapons. The one thing he doesn’t expect is to be stuck there for nine months with no logistics backing, running out of food, cold, wet and miserable.”

That sounds like a much less bad option to me.

Cutting off Hamas resources is a brilliant plan. It also minimizes civilian casualties.

Unfortunately Israel has assembled a huge army that’s ready to attack at any time. The political pressure to attack must be intense.

Keep in mind that many civilians would be getting isolated in northern Gaza for nine months in that scenario too.

That might actually be worse.
It is not like it is just Hamas in the North. A long siege with supplies already low as opposed to a massive but fast strike is not likely to be good for either side.