Hamas will need to be eliminated through displacement. Right now it has the Gaza Strip in an iron grip, so military action is needed. But after this Israel will not be able to withdraw from Gaza until another group to replace Hamas is in place. And if Hamas or a successor group tries to topple that group, international support (or failing that Israel) will be needed to stop this from happening.
You have provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions and repeating the casualty count. Zero.
Of course the siege targets Hamas. Where do you think the equipment they use comes from? Spontaneous generation?
It seems like the main issue isn’t the concept of a ceasefire, per se, but of creating a ceasefire that both sides have reason to believe will be respected by the other.
…“You have provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions” said the person who has provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions.
I’ve provided multiple cites throughout the thread. But the mere existence of the siege is most telling here. The siege doesn’t target Hamas. It targets everybody in Gaza.
Even in the hypothetical where Israel installs a new government that is able to box Hamas out of having a base of operations in Gaza, Hamas can still do what the PLO did back in the day and operate in neighboring countries with allies such as Hezbollah.
And I don’t think international support will be able to protect the new government from Hamas. The international community trying to project power that way has more oven than not failed, especially in the last few decades in the middle east.
…I don’t think talking about 4000 dead children deserves a LOL, to be honest. And video evidence of Hamasniks shooting from hospitals doesn’t really seem like a good excuse for such a massive toll on the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.
You’re right, that was the only time they used civilians as human shields, the rest were just used for target practice
You know what my dude? I’m done trying to spoil your innocence. Enjoy your idyllic little island where you have the luxury of pretending that war is neat and clean. Hopefully China never decides to shatter that illusion.
You’ve quoted this figure repeatedly. However, the only source I can find for it is the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry. Have you any independent corroboration of that figure? Because I’m not prepared to take Hamas’s word on what color the sky is, let alone how many casualties they’ve incurred.
…there has been independent confirmation of the numbers, the names have been provided and if you want to do your own independent confirmation, you are welcome to. In the past, the numbers have been shown to be broadly accurate, often they are an undercount. And the numbers are being used by the US State Department, NGO’s, and much of the news media.
But if you don’t want to believe these numbers, a senior Israeli security source thinks the numbers are double the Hamas figures, at 20,000 dead. I don’t know where they got that number from, but if you want to believe that twice as Hamas have claimed to have died have died, I’m not going to stop you.
…when we talk about “zero evidence” and " self righteous assertions" I think its entirely fair to talk about the matter of “human shields.” Because you have continually framed the deaths of thousands of Palestinian children as “Hamas were hiding behind them” or “they were human shields” and refusing to even consider they were killed as the result of indiscriminate bombing. I have no problem believing that in war, sometimes unfortunate choices have to be made.
But just saying they are “human shields” isn’t evidence that those 4000 children were human shields. And when I talked about accountability and transparency earlier in the thread, it’s this that I’m talking about. A few videos of rockets allegedly being fired from a hospital isn’t evidence of wide-spread use of children as human shields. Unless you are using a much broader definition of what a human shield is and if you are, you really should share that with the rest of us.
If you’re going to accuse Israel of the horrible crime of indiscriminate bombing, then provide some fucking evidence. And no, a number of dead children is not evidence of indiscriminate bombing. Evidence that Israel is not aiming at valid military targets is.
Come on, man. That’s not what the videos show and you know it.
There aren’t a handful of dudes occassionally taking potshots from behind school busses. Hamas’s headquarters in multiple neighborhoods of Gaza are literally built under hospitals, as the videos show.
…I’m perfectly happy to share story-after-story-after-story about entire families that have been killed during the bombing campaign. How many do you want? Give me a number.
But once I’ve posted them, its over to you. Show me evidence that they were “human shields.” Tell me why their home or the refugee camp of the hospital or the school they were sheltering was targeted. Don’t just assert it. Provide evidence.
Just give me a number.
You aren’t connecting the dots. Is there evidence of human shields in any of the videos that were posted?
Yes, of course there is. If there is a hospital that was hit by a bomb, and it was hit by a bomb because it sits on top of Hamas HQ, then yes, the people who were hit were being used as human shields by Hamas. That’s why Hamas put their HQ there.
I’m confused, did you think “human shield” meant only this?
Which hospital? What day? What time? What casualties?
I’ve asked you to share your definition. Is this your definition? Because if it is, then once again, where is the evidence that this is the case for even some of the 4000 children that have died so far in the campaign?
Do you think Hamas moves their HQ tunnels? This is a permenant base of operations.
If Hamas builds an HQ under a neighborhood in Jabalia or under Indonesian Hospital or under Sheik Hamad hospital and Israel bombs that HQ then yes the people who are on the surface are being using as human shields. I am unsure what other definition you possibly thought I might be using but since that appears to be a point of confusion I hope this helps.
…which hospital? What evidence is there that Hamas has HQ tunnels there? Which civilian casualties died that you consider “human shields?”
We aren’t talking about “ifs.”
Please don’t accuse me of bringing “zero evidence” and " self righteous assertions" when your entire argument seems to be hinged on an “if.”
And if the bombing campaign is predicated on an “if” then I think I’m entirely justified in calling that bombing indiscriminate.
I’ve asked you for evidence. If you can’t provide it, that’s fine. That’s just the reality of how these things work sometimes. But don’t accuse me of having zero evidence when this is as good as your argument gets.
I’m not gonna play these games. The video I linked above included photos that show these tunnels at the three locations I described, as well as missile launch pads and militants firing small arms.
