# Discworld Latecomers Ongoing Discussion (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [January 12, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979 "2017-01-12T18:35:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/361 "2021-12-14T22:47:41Z")
You mean Moist. Vetenari was most peeved with Ludwig when he found out the information had been sent to every kingdom around AM. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/362 "2021-12-14T22:57:16Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Going Postal is amazing. Making Money is only OK so far. I’m afraid that’s how I felt about all the Moist books after Going Postal. Even bad Pratchett is better than most other people. But Going Postal was very good Pratchett, which is something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/363 "2021-12-14T22:59:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Vetenari was most peeved with Ludwig when he found out the information had been sent to every kingdom around AM. Huh. I really did miss that. I thought they were talking to Vetinari and it was him that did that. Very different than I understood it, then. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/364 "2021-12-17T02:51:39Z")
**Making Money** A disappointment mainly because Going Postal was so great. I like a lot of the themes and cultural-analysis in this one, but the story and new characters were not all that great. A fine book, but only a mid-level Discworld book. I don’t have a lot to say about it. I did not laugh much, I can tell you that. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/365 "2021-12-17T23:05:07Z")
I agree it isn’t top tier Pratchett. It wasn’t as bad as **Unseen Academicals** , I’ll give it that. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/366 "2021-12-18T17:46:53Z")
Right, the later Moist books seemed as if he was just more or less writing the same book over and over. I guess the Alzheimers was starting to take a toll. Maybe someone should have kindly advised him that he should stop, or at least take a new tack? What an embuggerance… ---
**Author:** ![Raza](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raza/32/213_2.png) [@Raza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raza)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/367 "2021-12-20T02:40:32Z")
Reviewing my GoodReads ratings I have, for reasons unknown, _Making Money_ rated higher than _Going Postal_. I’m a relatively recent adoptee of GoodReads and it’s probably an outcome from rating them at different times, and my discomfort at GoodReads star descriptions (2 stars of 5 means “it was OK”, 3 means “I liked it”, leaving only a single rating point to denote dislike). My short review of _Making Money_ notes that I thought the ending could have used some polish, and I hadn’t written a review of _Going Postal_ but I recall really enjoying it (though I thought the mechanics of the ending were really contrived, and perhaps that’s why I deducted a star). I’m up to 14 Discworld books read, and a common theme I’m finding, for myself, is: love the premise, love the first half, dislike distracting subplot 4\*\*, felt ending could have used some work/a bit of _deus ex machina_. I more consistently enjoy Pratchett’s books thus far over Gaiman, who is a bit hit-or-miss for me (but even his misses are OK). \*\* currently reading _Equal Rites_ and it seems unusually focused, so that complaint doesn’t apply so far. But as an example, the “oh god” subplot of _Hogfather_ was a real pointless distraction for me, and it did not advance the plot in any meaningful way. In fact, I probably page-skip a lot of stuff involving the wizards ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/368 "2021-12-20T02:55:36Z")
I might be an outlier: I thought Making Money was nearly as good as Going Postal. It covered some of the same ground, but that’s inevitable, given that it didn’t have the luxury of introducing a new main character. Raising Steam is where the Lipvig books really fell off in quality. It just didn’t seem to fit in. ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse\_Chaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Eclipse\_Chaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse_Chaser)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/369 "2021-12-20T12:25:45Z")
To me, it seemed that Raising Steam was written mainly by Someone Else using Terry’s ideas. The writing style is just so different. There is almost no first-person viewpoint as you have with the other Moist books, or Vimes, or Granny Weatherwax. It’s just a narrative saying, this happened, then that happened, then this happened, and so on. And I don’t think it helped that there seemed to have been an effort by the writing team (or whoever) to shoehorn in an appearance by virtually every major Discworld character. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/370 "2021-12-20T14:03:07Z")
Even beyond that, the entire concept just didn’t seem to fit in. A-M is now railroading, because it’s time to railroad. Says who? What precursors were there? What indications were there in the world that this was coming? And in fact, there were indicators already in place that A-M was going to take a very different technological direction: Remember the Axle Device from the end of Thud!, and the question of what it could be used for? “Everything”. I’d have liked to have seen an Industrial Revolution based on that, both like and completely unlike what we saw in our own world. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/371 "2021-12-20T15:40:00Z")
OTOH, I loved the sub-plot involving the “excess of belief” sloshing around. It didn’t need to advance the main plot, which was chugging right along all by itself just fine. To me, the big drop off in quality occurred with _Unseen Academicals_, and things never got better. (I’m excluding the Tiffany Aching books from this, because reasons.) Once he decided to introduce orcs and goblins to the mix I tapped out. _Making Money_ was just a rehash of _Going Postal_, and the less said about _Snuff_ and _Raising Steam_ the better. Although that last one got a little bit better on rereading. I can’t say that about _Snuff_. I agree with **Chronos** that _Raising Steam_ really came out of nowhere, and the Device would have been so much more interesting to explore. Ah, well. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/372 "2021-12-20T17:03:00Z")
For the steam train thing - Pterry really liked steam trains. I’m not going to begrudge him the chance to write about them (and it was brewing since Small Gods, anyway( > [@silenus](#): > > Once he decided to introduce orcs and goblins to the mix I tapped out Why them, particularly, and not gnolls, gnomes, lizard men, skeleton warriors, trolls, elves or actual Gollum cameos? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/373 "2021-12-20T17:11:08Z")
All the rest were hard-baked into the Disc from the beginning. Orcs and goblins were introduced so Pterry could go all “social warrior” and write about discrimination and oppression, which he had managed to avoid for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/374 "2021-12-20T18:13:00Z")
Discrimination and oppression were pretty constant themes, weren’t they? Jingo was explicitly about racism, but there isn’t an Ankh Morpork novel that doesn’t reflect on attitudes toward the dwarves and trolls (and their mutual intolerance). Men At Arms and Thud are probably the strongest examples, but it comes up constantly. Then you had the golems in Feet of Clay and Going Postal, women in Monstrous Regiment, the evils of class prejudice pretty much any time Vimes gets more than a paragraph of inner monologue (or outer monologue)… I genuinely don’t know how you could read Discworld pre Unseen Academicals and think Pterry was avoiding discrimination and oppression as themes. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/375 "2021-12-20T18:46:32Z")
I knew I worded that badly. Earlier Pratchett had those themes all right, but none of the “oppressed masses” were ever regarded as weak or pathetic. They were “other” and most likely an enemy or at least a competitor for resources. Therein lies good drama. But orcs and goblins were weak, hunted almost to extinction, and very much “subservient” races. When Pterry started taking on their plight he lost me completely. I’m sure it also had a lot to do with the progression of his disease, but I found his handling of those races to be trite, while at the same time heavy-handed and anvilicious. YMMV, of course. Maybe if he had been well enough to have written several more books featuring them he could have shown them to be just as petty, annoying and utter bastards as every other race on the Disc. But he didn’t. On top of all that, I was really disappointed we didn’t get _Scouting For Trolls._ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/376 "2021-12-20T19:44:33Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Orcs and goblins were introduced so Pterry could go all “social warrior” and write about discrimination and oppression, which he had managed to avoid for the most part. What, exactly, would you say were the major themes of _Equal Rites_? _Feet of Clay_? _Monstrous Regiment_? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/377 "2021-12-20T19:50:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Earlier Pratchett had those themes all right, but none of the “oppressed masses” were ever regarded as weak or pathetic. Gnolls? > [@silenus](#): > > But orcs and goblins were weak Errm, did you read a different _Unseen Academicals_ to me? Discworld orcs as represented by Nutt were distinctly not portrayed as _weak_. > [@silenus](#): > > . I’m sure it also had a lot to do with the progression of his disease, but I found his handling of those races to be trite, while at the same time heavy-handed and anvilicious. Speaking as a racial minority who grew up living under open racist oppression, I found his treatment of both to be sensitive, empowering and masterfully humane. And entirely in keeping with his overall artistic project. ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse\_Chaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Eclipse\_Chaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse_Chaser)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/378 "2021-12-21T14:00:30Z")
Even given that we’re going to have steam power with Dick Simnel presumably the Stephenson character, it all develops unrealistically quickly, with rail tracks being laid from AM to Lancre (about a thousand miles I think?) it what seems like about a year or so? In England it took around 8 years just to connect London to Manchester, around 200 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2021, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/379 "2021-12-28T17:27:04Z")
I have to say it. I liked Unseen Academicals. I don’t get the hate for it. But Raising Steam, Making Money and Snuff, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979/380 "2022-01-13T01:22:01Z")
Five years today since I posted this thread and I have read 33 of the books. [Here is my ranking of them five years on.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xWPO28bGnNhgPN2pj4cscnfQJxb8pKTkzQ3fQp8LdQw/edit?usp=sharing) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-latecomers-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/776979.md?page=20)