# Discworld Reading Club #8: Guards! Guards! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 1, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573 "2006-02-01T21:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/1 "2006-02-01T21:22:16Z")
Not sure if it’s too soon or not after the previous DWRC, but what the hey. For those just tuning in, this is the latest installment of the SDMB Discworld Reading Club. You can catch up with: [DWRC 1: The Colour of Magic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=319942) [DWRC 2: The Light Fantastic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=322121) [DWRC 3: Equal Rites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=323881) [DWRC 4: Mort](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=325906) [DWRC 5: Sourcery](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=329316) [DWRC 6: Wyrd Sisters](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=331474) [DWRC 7: Pyramids](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354028) (And next up is the short and hard-to-find-with-illustrations **Eric,** for those looking ahead) Anyway, longtime Discworld readers know that many of the novels feature recurring characters – the Death and Susan books, the Witches books… …and now here’s _Guards! Guards!,_ otherwise known as our introduction to Fred Colon, Nobby Nobbs, and the miserably alcoholic Samuel Vimes. The Ankh-Morpork night watch is a bad joke, but things go in an unexpected direction when the city is visited by (a) a bleedin’ great flying dragon, and (b) Carrot Ironfounderson, who was raised as a dwarf and then raised further as a human. The Watch will eventually thrive in their own series of novels, but this is where it all began. I’d rather let the other SDMBDWRC members get this discussion going, so I’ll just toss out one thought here. A recurring discussion with Discworld readers is trying to identify where Terry Pratchett went from lighthearted spoofs of fantasy novels to the more “serious” humor he’s known for today. I won’t say that _Guards! Guards!_ is that turning point – rather, I think it was a gradual process, starting with _Mort,_ easing through _Sourcery_ and _Pyramids,_ and finally (mostly) completing the transition with _Guards! Guards!_ While Vimes gets the most attention in this book, none of the other characters are given short shrift, and Lord Vetinari and the Ankh-Morpork guild dynamics gets further fleshed out as well. The novel could have been just a collection of parodies and jokes, but there’s a depth to the characters that makes it more enduring, IMO. Anyway, that’s my first take on it. Your thoughs? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/2 "2006-02-01T21:41:39Z")
“The significant owl hoots in the night.” This is where the whole Disc took off for me. Perfect in every way. And it has Sybil, who one of these days is going to get a book of her own. Carrot is a gem, and I kind of like him better as the literalist he is in the first few books as opposed to the King Who Walks Among Us he becomes in the later books. Still good, just not great. YMMV. All the characters are introduced and fleshed out well, as noted, and the story serves as a springboard to The Future. Vimes is by far my favorite male character on the Disc, and this novel lets him show his mettle. “This is Lord Mountjoy Quickfang Winterforth IV, the hottest dragon in the city. It could burn your head clean off.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/3 "2006-02-01T21:46:42Z")
It’s certainly a strong contender for the first serious DW novel, though as you say, it still hasn’t settled down properly. The first unambiguously serious, self-contained novels (as opposed to obligatory parodies) would be “Witches Abroad” and “Small Gods” IMO. This was the first Discworld book I read, and I still have a real soft spot for it as a result. As a result it’s kind of hard for me to judge it objectively. It seemed so radical in it’s day, and I was so much into roleplaying and fantasy at the time, that it seemed incredible. But I suspect that judging it objectively as someone 15 years wiser with much less interest the in fantasy genre it really isn’t that good. The characters are interesting and ‘real’ DW characters. The story is interesting, the interactions of the various characters is well done. But I suspect that objectively it lacks a lot of the punch of later works. Another thing that bugs me now, although of course it doesn’t affect the novel as a stand alone, is that the vital plot point is recycled from one from one of the early Rincewind/Twoflower novels: ‘Dragons can only be called up from our minds’. Pratchett has a habit of doing this (Dungeon Dimensions anyone?). I can understand an author casually introducing an idea that he later wants to expand on, but this is a case of an author using the same crucial plot element twice. Seems kind of weak. ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/4 "2006-02-01T22:22:02Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Another thing that bugs me now, although of course it doesn’t affect the novel as a stand alone, is that the vital plot point is recycled from one from one of the early Rincewind/Twoflower novels: ‘Dragons can only be called up from our minds’. I believe that was from _The Light Fantastic_, although the way it was handled was quite a bit different. I believe this dragon was quite a bit bigger than the dragons in that book. He also went with quite a bit different tact with how dragons manifest from our minds. In TLF it was basically a wonderful creature you just have to believe in. Here it was more the representation of the person you are. I just finished this book, and I very much enjoyed it. I’ll have to pick up _Eric_ now, although it seems like a lot of people really dislike it. Oh well, I haven’t really disliked anything so far! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/5 "2006-02-02T11:15:56Z")
I often, for no reason, blurt out “Hooray, hooray, for the Spinster’s sister’s daughter!” The scene with Colon attempting the “Million to one” shot is a classic for me. And Vimes is one of my favourite DW characters, but I must confess to liking the later Carrot a lot more than the early literalist. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/6 "2006-02-02T12:42:18Z")
Having been brought up on British humour, I considered this book to be one of the funniest I’d ever read up to that time, mostly because of the Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night being such a hilarious bunch of idiots, fitting those character-types that always make me snigger. I’m not a fan of Vimes, but I love Carrot, Nobby, and many of the subsequent Watch-persons that come in later books, and this one is a fantastic showcase of their character. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/7 "2006-02-02T13:21:31Z")
> [@audiobottle](#): > > I’ll have to pick up _Eric_ now, although it seems like a lot of people really dislike it. _Eric_ isn’t _bad_, exactly. It just has always seemed to me like one of the few throwaway Discworld books, like Pterry was busy with something else while he was writing it and didn’t really put his heart into it. I’ve always thought of it as the Contractual Obligation Novel of the Discworld series. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/8 "2006-02-02T14:08:41Z")
If I recall correctly, \*\*Eric \*\* was originally conceived as an illustrated novel, with the (Kirby?) pictures as important a part of the whole as Pterry’s text. That is why the thin text-only editions seem lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/9 "2006-02-02T15:43:27Z")
Finally I’m in synch with the SD-DWRC, until now I always seem to be on the wrong book. > [@GuanoLad](#): > > . . . the Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night being such a hilarious bunch of idiots. . . This is the one bit of the book that didn’t work on me, I could see that it was supposed to be funny but it didn’t make me laugh at all (unlike say the million to one chance gag). What I really like about GG is the density of ideas, off the top of my head there’s: Vimes as every downtrodden cop/private eye ever. Carrott as dwarf/king and his _completely unmagical_ sword. The uselessness of swamp dragons. L-Space (which can be used to get back to last week). Errol the Whittle. The Vimes/Sybil Errol/Dragon (Queen) parallel The start of Vetenari always being two steps ahead of everyone. Any number of dread portals. I like the way some scenes are descibed sort of after the event, I’ve not got the book to hand but one I think an example would be when the dragon flames the coronation. (There might be a literary term for this trick). My favourite scene is after they think that Error has run away he zooms back and knocks the “King” out of the sky with what must be Discworld’s first sonic boom. Fabricati Diem Pvnc 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/10 "2006-02-02T16:22:06Z")
I’m finally synced up with the SDMB-DWRC too. I’ve read the Guards series out of order, so it was cool to get back to the first one. As others have said, I really liked Carrot’s dwarf/human interplay, especially the overly literal part. The Elucidated Brethren really worked for me, my favorite part being the first time Brother Finger’s is trying to get in. > [@](#): > > Fingers: “Are you sure the ill-built tower doesn’t tremble mightily at a butterfly’s passage?” > Doorman: “Nope. Bean soup it is. I’m sorry.” > Fingers: “What about the caged whale?” > Doorman: “What about it?” > Fingers: “It should know nothing of the mighty deeps, if you must know.” > Doorman: “Oh, the caged whale. You want the Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night. Three doors down.” And a minor point, I thought the would-be King’s character (or lack of character) was a nice touch. He was just an accessory to the Grand Master’s plans and that was about how much he factored in to the book. For those that read the books in order, was it still obvious who the Grand Master was? It might have been nice to have a few more candidates, but maybe that was because I knew the future of most of the characters. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/11 "2006-02-02T18:23:36Z")
I love this book. I spent years as a herald in the SCA, and the scenes at the College of Heralds crack me up. I’m also into dogs. (I don’t breed, I do rescue.) Pratchett has us nailed. The appeals to pity (poor little dragon, dumped into cruel world, give money), the obsessive breeding programs (his grandfather had good wingspan, I’m breeding away from the asthma), the willingness to calmly accept chaos and destruction in the house because dragons do tend to drool, the ladies in old clothes and sensible shoes who turn out to own half of Ankh; it’s all spot on. And I love Sybil. She may very well be my favorite character in all the books. At some point, Pratchett says that because she is large and kind, people assume she is stupid. Far, far from it, and she and Sam make a wonderful couple. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/12 "2006-02-02T20:43:24Z")
> [@The Punkyova](#): > > the willingness to calmly accept chaos and destruction in the house because dragons do tend to drool, the ladies in old clothes and sensible shoes who turn out to own half of Ankh; it’s all spot on. > > And I love Sybil. She may very well be my favorite character in all the books. I saw “The Curse of the Were-Rabbit” movie shortly before reading Guards! Guards!. Sibyl’s my favorite too, especially since she is inextricably genre crosswired with Lady Tottington and Wallace & Grommit. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/13 "2006-02-02T21:10:25Z")
> [@The Punkyova](#): > > I love this book. I spent years as a herald in the SCA, and the scenes at the College of Heralds crack me up. Isn’t that in _Men at Arms_? MrDibble (also a herald) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/14 "2006-02-02T21:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by The Punkyova > I love this book. I spent years as a herald in the SCA, and the scenes at the College of Heralds crack me up. > > Isn’t that in Men at Arms? > > MrDibble (also a herald) You’re right. It is. Sorry, sorry. They ran together in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/15 "2006-02-03T20:56:50Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If I recall correctly, \*\*Eric \*\* was originally conceived as an illustrated novel, with the (Kirby?) pictures as important a part of the whole as Pterry’s text. That is why the thin text-only editions seem lacking. Someone had an auction for the illustrated first edition on eBay a few months back. IIRC, the bids got up to $300+ :eek: Not to get too far ahead of the novels, but one thing that vexes me the more we learn about Vimes’ past (most notably in **Night Watch** is how he ends up as the broken, drunk, cynical loser he is at the start of **G!G!** The only way I can account for it is that something happened to Vimes a few years before the start of this novel to give his psyche an uncharacteristically sideways jump into extreme knurd. And I’m surprised nobody has nominated Dibbler’s anti-dragon merchandise sales as one of the (many) fun parts of this novel. “Anti-dragon cream. Personal guarantee: if you’re incinerated you get your money back, no quibble.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/16 "2006-02-03T21:44:49Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Not to get too far ahead of the novels, but one thing that vexes me the more we learn about Vimes’ past (most notably in **Night Watch** is how he ends up as the broken, drunk, cynical loser he is at the start of **G!G!** The only way I can account for it is that something happened to Vimes a few years before the start of this novel to give his psyche an uncharacteristically sideways jump into extreme knurd. I’ll give you a better answer when we get to **Night Watch** , but I don’t think any one thing happened to him. He just got old and lonely, and convinced that nothing he could do made a difference. A big part of the reason he starts to change in **G!G** is because he meets Sybil, who believes he’s a good person, and he meets Carrot, who’s the only one besides himself to believe the law should mean something. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/17 "2006-02-03T21:54:03Z")
According to Fred Colon, Vimes was “brought low by a woman.” Now this could be literal, and involve a broken love affair and the like, or it could be meta…meta…metawossname…metaphorical and involve Ankh-Morpork betraying him in some fashion, or The Previous Patrician stabbing him in the back and selling the Watch down the river. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/18 "2006-04-10T14:21:33Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > For those that read the books in order, was it still obvious who the Grand Master was? It might have been nice to have a few more candidates, but maybe that was because I knew the future of most of the characters. Well, I’m still not caught up on my listening yet (I’ve got the audiobooks and use them when exercising - a bit slower than reading, but I love the reader’s - Nigel Planer - voice talents), so I’m still behind you guys. But yes, it was completely obvious from the moment Wants was introduced. At least it was to me. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/19 "2006-04-10T15:14:40Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Well, I’m still not caught up on my listening yet (I’ve got the audiobooks and use them when exercising - a bit slower than reading, but I love the reader’s - Nigel Planer - voice talents), so I’m still behind you guys. > > But yes, it was completely obvious from the moment Wants was introduced. At least it was to me. > > -Joe It’s been so long since I read this, that the Grand Master references here went totally over my head. Reminders, please? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573/20 "2006-04-12T15:45:38Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > It’s been so long since I read this, that the Grand Master references here went totally over my head. Reminders, please? The Secret Brotherhood Of Losers (can’t remember the actual name) was the ones responsible for summoning The Dragon. The Grand Master was the head of the group. -Joe [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-reading-club-8-guards-guards/342573.md?page=2)