# Discworld: who/what doesn't have a soul? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134 "2004-10-14T01:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/1 "2004-10-14T01:00:18Z")
Spoilers possible! Alright, here are the ground rules. I’m looking for the must humaniform critter that does NOT have a soul. Trolls presumably have souls. I don’t think we’ve ever seen Death come for one, so we can’t be sure. Golems do have souls. BUT, do the non-freed golems, the ones who don’t take time off to not be a metaphorical hammer, also have souls? Hex is presumably alive. He does ask (obliquely) if it is his time to die in Hogfather. Imps and other biothaumic constructs appear not to have souls. The auditors are basically anti-soul, as far as I can tell. Any other tough-to-decide cases? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/2 "2004-10-14T01:20:52Z")
How are you defining “soul” here? Do you just mean whether or not Death will come for that kind of being? If that’s the case, it seems clear enough that Death comes for anything that can die. We saw the system break down into a multitude of sub-Deaths in **Reaper Man** , and I’m sure there was a book where Death went to the bottom of the ocean for the death of a small deep-sea plant/animal. I guess it’s not clear whether or not vampires can truly die (in **Carpe Jugulum** it seems that killing them is only temporary), so maybe they don’t have souls. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/3 "2004-10-14T01:24:16Z")
To have a soul, Death needs to come for you, and take you someplace afterwords. Death came for the three Auditor-hounds in Hogfather, but didn’t usher them off to the Desert. Oh, yeah: Gods have no souls, and apparently can’t die. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/4 "2004-10-14T01:31:34Z")
Gods can die…when their last believer dies, so do they. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/5 "2004-10-14T01:31:42Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > How are you defining “soul” here? Do you just mean whether or not Death will come for that kind of being? By that definition the turtle and elephants have souls. In Last Hero, when Cohen the Barbarian is doing something that will destroy the Discworld, Death is given the signal to be prepared to take them. He seems…daunted by the task. Rats also have souls - and their own Death. So…most everything on the Disc seems to… Except maybe the gods. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/6 "2004-10-14T01:38:01Z")
Some spoilers below, including one for the latest DW novel: Auditors _can_ have souls, under certain highly unusual circumstances (cf. _Thief of Time_.) Clearly, the ensouled auditor in that book has become something other than an auditor by the time of her death, but it does demonstrate that a soul is something one can acquire inadvertently, and not necessarily have as an innate trait. The same applies to the golem in _Going Postal_: my impression was that he had somehow acquired a soul by dint of his fantastic age. The rogue golem in _Feet of Clay_ did not, so far as we know, meet death after he was destroyed, and he was both the nominal villain of the novel, and a sympathetic character, and villains and sympathetic characters who die in Discworld novels almost always get a personal visit, if applicable. Also, in _Monstrous Regiment_, it is stated repeatedly that the diety worshipped in Borogravia has died, although I suppose there is some question of wether this is merely another way of refering to the fate of forgotten gods as laid out in _Small Gods_, or some distinct state. (It also raises the question of what would have happened to Om if he had died as a turtle before he met Brutha, and remembered that he used to be a diety. Would he have become a small god again, or would he have died as a tortoise and been collected by Death?) Lastly, it appears that Death also has a soul, as he at one point reports to a “superior” Death who appears to be the source of all the sub-Deaths in all the other multiverses, and (it is implied) will one day come to collect them after everything has died in their respective universes. Forget which book this was in, though. _Soul Music_, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/7 "2004-10-14T01:41:47Z")
**Reaper Man** …I think. ---
**Author:** ![Graycat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Graycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Graycat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/8 "2004-10-14T03:14:38Z")
Yes, Azrael is in _Reaper Man._ I don’t think the elves have souls; I just finished re-reading _Lords and Ladies_ and I don’t recall Death showing up for any of them. I wonder if that could be because they are un-Discly creatures? ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/9 "2004-10-14T03:27:56Z")
It’s been mentioned that even inanimate objects have souls. In Reaper Man, Death asks the smith to destroy his sycthe so that he can use it to fight the new death. In another book (Actually, it might be Reaper Man again, but I’m not sure) a medium sets fire to a glass of alcohol so that her spirit guide can drink it. Also she smashes a vase so the spirit can use it as a weapon against another spirit. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/10 "2004-10-14T05:22:13Z")
Discworld gods have lifetimers and souls. Heck, **The Last Hero** even made a brief reference to a lifetimer for Great A’Tuin and the Disc itself… ---
**Author:** ![BraheSilver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@BraheSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BraheSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/11 "2004-10-14T05:49:51Z")
Well, in _Reaper Man_ the Combine Harvester briefly had an afterlife. In _Eric_, Death is still hanging around at the last moments of his universe - and then watches a new one appear so he waits patiently for something to eventually appear that will die. Azreal is the Death of Universes, right? Do they have souls? I’m rereading _Mort_ at the moment, and it’s clear that Death doesn’t have to turn up for everybody (just wizards and witches and the important nodes, however those are decided), but keeps his hand in the smaller stuff for practice. It seems that if you’re important enough to die as part of the plot in a Discworld novel, Death will show up. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/12 "2004-10-14T22:41:53Z")
> [@](#): > > It seems that if you’re important enough to die as part of the plot in a Discworld novel, Death will show up. And I kinda wish he’d cut it out. It seems like you can’t get a Discworld novel without a Death cameo somewhere nowadays. Cheapens the whole experience. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/13 "2004-10-14T22:58:14Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And I kinda wish he’d cut it out. It seems like you can’t get a Discworld novel without a Death cameo somewhere nowadays. Cheapens the whole experience. Nonsense. Pratchett makes the very fine point that in any universe, Death is a constant (and he’s easily my favorite character). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/14 "2004-10-14T23:03:27Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And I kinda wish he’d cut it out. It seems like you can’t get a Discworld novel without a Death cameo somewhere nowadays. Cheapens the whole experience. I don’t mind the Death cameos, it’s the Igor cameos that are wearing thin. I know a lot of people don’t like the Igors at all: I’m not one of them. I liked them in _Carpe Jugulum_. I liked them in _Thie of Time_. I liked them in _The Fifth Elephant_. But the one in his latest book just seemed so shoe-horned into the plot. The villain he works for just didn’t seem at all to be the sort of villain who would attract an Igor, and the fact that the character was an Igor didn’t add anything at all to the story. His role in the novel could have been fulfilled by an ordinary butler, without changing a thing except for missing out on the lisping jokes. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/15 "2004-10-14T23:15:34Z")
I think the point of Reacher Gilt (whatagiveaway) having an Igor butler, is that Igors typically work for the nobility. This particular Igor does eventually come to the realization that he is in the wrong job. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/16 "2004-10-14T23:37:31Z")
> [@cher3](#): > > I think the point of Reacher Gilt (whatagiveaway) having an Igor butler, is that Igors typically work for the nobility. This particular Igor does eventually come to the realization that he is in the wrong job. Some spoilers for _Going Postal_ follow: [spoiler]I disagree, somewhat. First, Igor’s don’t always work for the nobility. The one in _Thief of Time_ didn’t, for example, nor does the (somewhat atypical, admittedly) one who works for the Watch. Nor did the one in _Monstrous Regiment_, who I suppose was also fairly atypical, compared to the Igors we’ve seen before and since. A lot of them do work for nobles, obviously (mostly for Counts, natch) but it’s hardly a requirement. Gilt is the wrong sort of master, though, because he’s just a confidence man turned corporate pirate. He’s not Tinkering in God’s Domain, he’s not dabbling in What Man Was Not Meant To Know, and he’s not a big afficianado of The Children of the Night, and the Beautiful Music They Make. He’s just playing fast and loose with an account ledger. An Igor only really works as a literary concept when he’s employed by a suitably Gothic villain. And the Igor in _Going Postal_ quits not because he realizes Reacher Gilt isn’t really a noble, or a properly gothic villain, he quits because he has the Igor weathersense for when a villain’s plot is about to go all pear-shaped and, like generations of Igor before (not to mention within) him, he books it before the peasant mob shows up with torches and pitchforks.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/17 "2004-10-15T13:04:21Z")
On the appearances of Death: In one of the early books, Pratchett said that Death only appeared (in the sense of being visible) for “important” cases. Wizards, for instance, were able to see Death slightly before they died. There’s some ambiguity here: Death can’t be everywhere at once, so he only personally attends to certain cases – sometimes, their simply the ones that interest him, like the little kelp at the bottom of the sea. And, of course, one of the major points of one of the books is that there is no such thing as an “unimportant” person. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/18 "2004-10-15T19:46:11Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > There’s some ambiguity here: Death can’t be everywhere at once Of course, given that Death “isn’t a creature of time,” there’s no real reason why he _can’t_ be everywhere… ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/19 "2004-10-15T20:22:39Z")
Yes, **Miller** that’s all true. But it does seem to be implied that Gilt chose an Igor over a regular butler as a form of conspicuous consumption. It was stated somewhere that Igors are generally very expensive. (Unless, presumably, they choose to make an exception for reasons of their own.) Even Jeremy’s Igor was hired for him by someone who at least seemed to be a noblewoman. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134/20 "2004-10-15T20:31:39Z")
> [@cher3](#): > > Yes, **Miller** that’s all true. But it does seem to be implied that Gilt chose an Igor over a regular butler as a form of conspicuous consumption. It was stated somewhere that Igors are generally very expensive. (Unless, presumably, they choose to make an exception for reasons of their own.) Even Jeremy’s Igor was hired for him by someone who at least seemed to be a noblewoman. That’s exactly my problem: he has an Igor because it’s a form of conspicuous consumption. That just doesn’t jibe with how Pratchett has written the Igors previously. Igors are traditionalist who take immense pride in their jobs. What does Gilt need an Igor for? He doesn’t do lab work, he doesn’t get involved in fights that result in greivous bodily harm, he doesn’t even cackle madly. What is there in what Reacher Gilt does that would attract an Igor to his service, no matter how much he was offering to pay them? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discworld-who-what-doesnt-have-a-soul/269134.md?page=2)