# Disgusted by politics right now (yet another health care thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 21, 2010, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225 "2010-03-21T11:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/61 "2010-03-23T04:11:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The facts do not show that UHC is better with health care. I’m probably being nicer to you than you deserve, but I’m going to respond as though you had meant to say (and actually **said** ) _“The facts to not show that health care is better with UHC.”_ I suppose an investment in believing that they do not can motivate one to insist on defining “better health care” in such a way (and viewing the facts in such a way) that the analysis fails to establish definitively that they do show health care to be better when costs are administrated by a UHC system. If you’d like to articulate an argument that the facts show that UHC leads to _worse_ health care, [del]go nuts[/del] [del]knock yourself out[/del] let 'er rip. Please provide real-world data (as opposed to anecdotes) in your analysis. Unless your argument boils down to _“You can’t prove that the quality of health care is related to the scheme by which it is paid for.”_ If that’s your point, save it. We’ve heard it before anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/62 "2010-03-23T04:33:20Z")
Perhaps **RR** will trot out his standard “Americans are inherently and incurably fat and unhealthy, and that explains their poor health outcomes compared with countries with UHC” schtick. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/63 "2010-03-23T04:41:50Z")
Yes, because his active [921 post thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=550553) didn’t provide him with nearly enough opportunity to share his retarded worldview. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/64 "2010-03-23T04:44:04Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Thanks. I see you are correct. I also note that as seems typical, for him, when presented with factual information that undermined his position, **S\_A** tried to move the goalposts, and for good measure, tried to dismiss your points as irrelevant. Well, hey, what do I know? I’m only a Canadian resident in Canada who is covered by my province’s health insurance plan and who has been treated just fine by the same. As I understand some of the arguments posted so far by Starving Artist, that makes me, and my fellow Canadians, much less qualified to discuss health care delivery in Canada than American commentators in such American publications as the _National Review_. Yeah, right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/65 "2010-03-23T05:45:13Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > As you habitually claim to have cites without ever actually producing them, I’m calling bullshit on this one, and I’m certainly not going to do your work for you. Provide at least one such cite, or link to one or more threads where you did link to them, if you please. I believe **Starving Artist** doesn’t believe in cites. He prefers to offer his own “experiences.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/66 "2010-03-23T07:12:05Z")
> [@enigmatic](#): > > Well I can’t talk about Canada, but I can certainly confirm that living in the UK I have only ever come across one opinion in response to the US healthcare system, that of bemused horror. > > People here will bitch and moan about specific issues with the good old NHS till the cows come home. However consensus opinion is massively and overwhelmingly in favour of the state healthcare system as a whole, at least according to my perception and the opinion of everyone I have ever talked about the issue with. > > You may find the odd, very well off, naysayer who wishes they could pay for more comprehensive private healthcare than is available. And I have no doubt that such individuals views receive a lot of attention from the anti health care side of the debate, but they are certainly not representative of any substantial proportion of UK society. > > I’ll say it again, socialised healthcare is overwhelmingly popular in the UK. Pretty much the same situation here in Sweden. Hell, forget that. Here in Sweden I have never met a single person or read/heard someone in the media say they would rather have a US-style system. Not a single person. I’d find the US system of healthcare amusing if it wasn’t so clearly resulting in so many deaths and bankruptcies. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/67 "2010-03-23T10:59:31Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Pretty much the same situation here in Sweden. > > Hell, forget that. Here in Sweden I have never met a single person or read/heard someone in the media say they would rather have a US-style system. > > Not a single person. > > I’d find the US system of healthcare amusing if it wasn’t so clearly resulting in so many deaths and bankruptcies. Same for New Zealand. Though the right wing is rearing it’s head now, it KNOWS it’s head would be shot clear off if it considered a US-like system. Even if the most right-wing group think differently, they KNOW that New Zealander’s would not agree with anything less then free hospital care for EVERYONE as needed. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/68 "2010-03-23T13:01:52Z")
. . . Which is one of the down-sides of large government entitlement programs. They breed dependence on the government, which breeds more programs and increased funding for existing programs. Eventually you end up with a country like Denark or France with high permanent unemploynent, a stagnant economy, an capable people leaving the country in droves, further exacerbating the lackluster economy. But hey, as long as you get free health care, none of this stuff seems to bother you. Which shows that you are blindly ideological and do not care about the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/69 "2010-03-23T13:07:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Perhaps **RR** will trot out his standard “Americans are inherently and incurably fat and unhealthy, and that explains their poor health outcomes compared with countries with UHC” schtick. It’s not a schtick. It’s an illustration of the principle that a healthier population in a country with UC does not automatically mean that UHC provides better health care. The reason for this is that more factors go into how healthy a population is than the quality or availability of health care. But you are blindly ideological, so you grasp whatever facts you think support your position, even when they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/70 "2010-03-23T14:30:32Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > . . .Eventually you end up with a country like Denark or France with high permanent unemploynent, a stagnant economy, an capable people leaving the country in droves, further exacerbating the lackluster economy. I’m at least glad to see that you’ve stopped including Canada in your list of countries with all these economic ills. Perhaps you do listen to cites after all! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/71 "2010-03-23T14:34:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > It’s not a schtick. OK then. It’s grasping at straws to try to come up with an exceptionalism argument for why the US spends significantly more per capita on health care while having significantly poorer health outcomes in several areas (longevity, infant mortality) I guess having millions of people with no health coverage could NEVER have a negative impact on the health of your population, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/72 "2010-03-23T14:34:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Eventually you end up with a country like Denark or France with high permanent unemploynent… > > \ > > …you are blindly ideological and do not care about the facts. Well, at least you’ve got something in common. That, is, unless you think [1.9%](http://www.indexmundi.com/denmark/unemployment_rate.html) is “high unemployment”. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/73 "2010-03-23T14:39:38Z")
> [@calm\_kiwi](#): > > Same for New Zealand. Though the right wing is rearing it’s head now, it KNOWS it’s head would be shot clear off if it considered a US-like system. > > Even if the most right-wing group think differently, they KNOW that New Zealander’s would not agree with anything less then free hospital care for EVERYONE as needed. Same for the UK. We appreciate the added freedoms we have over the USA. Freedom from the fear that the random chance of illness will bankrupt us. Freedom to change our jobs without worrying about health coverage. Any party proposing even what the Dems have just passed would be committing electoral suicide. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/74 "2010-03-23T15:40:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, at least you’ve got something in common. That, is, unless you think 1.9% is “high unemployment”. That same source does indeed suggest France has one of the highest unemloyment rates in western Europe, a whopping 7.4%, which is a whole 0.2% higher than the US. Do you want to compare healthcare coverage, amount paid for healthcare per capita, satisfaction with healthcare, or average standard of care next? 😃 Really from the outside looking in this seems like a no brainer. Most of the world pays for healthcare, the US citizen pays for both healthcare plus a massively profitable insurance infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/75 "2010-03-23T15:53:58Z")
> [@enigmatic](#): > > That same source does indeed suggest France has one of the highest unemloyment rates in western Europe, a whopping 7.4%, which is a whole 0.2% higher than the US. \Yes but you have to adjust for the fact that Americans are uniquely idle and shiftless. Factoring that in the US unemployment rate is actually 3. As in 3 people.\ ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/76 "2010-03-23T16:28:46Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > … Eventually you end up with a country like Denark or France with high permanent unemploynent, a stagnant economy, an capable people leaving the country in droves, further exacerbating the lackluster economy… Yep, we Germans have been overrun with hordes of fleeing Danes. We have seriously started thinking about rebuilding the Wall and putting it here: [\](http://www.schlei-ostsee-urlaub.de/foto/schlei-ostsee-urlaub_1073.jpg). The truth is that the Danish economy is actually doing very well (if not booming) and there are more people moving in the opposite direction (Germans looking for work in Denmark). Where the heck do you get your “facts” from anyway? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/77 "2010-03-23T16:33:21Z")
Only small, unimaginative minds are restricted by facts. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/78 "2010-03-23T16:37:27Z")
> [@Mycroft\_Holmes](#): > > Yep, we Germans have been overrun with hordes of fleeing Danes. We have seriously started thinking about rebuilding the Wall and putting it here: [\](http://www.schlei-ostsee-urlaub.de/foto/schlei-ostsee-urlaub_1073.jpg). > > The truth is that the Danish economy is actually doing very well (if not booming) and there are more people moving in the opposite direction (Germans looking for work in Denmark). Where the heck do you get your “facts” from anyway? Not saying where **RR** gets his facts. I just strongly suggest you don’t pick them up without your rubber gloves on and you probably don’t want to get them too close to your nose either.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/79 "2010-03-23T16:44:39Z")
> [@Mycroft\_Holmes](#): > > The truth is that the Danish economy is actually doing very well (if not booming) and there are more people moving in the opposite direction (Germans looking for work in Denmark). Where the heck do you get your “facts” from anyway? I just noticed that he actually said “Denark”, not “Denmark”. It’s certainly true that the good people of [Denark](http://www.denark.com/) have been saddled with historically high unemployment, especially with the downturn in the construction industry. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225/80 "2010-03-23T16:52:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Doesn’t matter where the info comes from if it’s correct. Do correct statements from unreliable sources have some extraspecial tag on them to let us know they’re really correct? Oh yeah - you’re quoting them. That must be how we know. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusted-by-politics-right-now-yet-another-health-care-thread/533225.md?page=5)