# Disgusting tale of woman's unsucessful search for emergency contraception **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272 "2006-09-26T21:58:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/281 "2013-01-09T00:31:29Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > A national professional body of pharmacists is the appropriate body to set professional standards. I have said this clearly. So yes, it is legitimate. > > I do not agree with it however - in my opinion they should direct their members to fill all legal prescriptions. If a pharmacist has a moral quandry with providing medication legally prescribed by a doctor, then they should be free to find a profession where they will not have to do what they don’t like. > > Feel free to call me a hypocrite. Not in the slightest. There’s nothing hypocritical about disagreeing with their view. I apologize for my mistake in suggesting your were – I felt sure that you would say that the rule was not legitimate for some reason. To agree it’s legitimate and simply disagree with it is absolutely consistent and appropriate, and I hope you’ll accept my apology. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/282 "2013-01-09T00:34:47Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I await your explanation as to why you think it’s OK for a pharmacy to violate someone’s right to medical care on the grounds that if you take enough trouble to look around, you might find another pharmacy that takes its responsibilities seriously. And please clarify which other rights you think are appropriate to deny, based on the argument that not everyone is doing it. I don’t agree anyone has a right to medical care. I don’t agree that if someone has a right to medical care, that right extends to getting the medical care from anyone they please. So before I can clarify what rights are appropriate to deny, I’d have to know what other “rights” you believe I even have? The right to have sex with Helen Hunt, maybe? That’d be a good one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/283 "2013-01-09T01:15:45Z")
Of course, we could solve this whole ridiculous problem by letting this stuff be sold OTC. If anyone is denying rights, it’s the government, which is needlessly controlling our access to medications. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/284 "2013-01-09T01:25:43Z")
By all means criticise Bricker’s stance in general as being ridiculous, but he does have integrity. > [@explain a miracle - religious debate](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/26): > > It’s true that we Catholics believe it magically turns into the Body of Christ. > > But we don’t believe as a result that it’s physically nutritious, because we believe that the magical change happens only to the _substance_ of the bread, not the _species_, or physical appearance and content, of the bread. > > We believe that the Body of Christ is very nutritious for one’s soul, but not for one’s physical body. He actually believes this. This is a hilarious thing to believe. But he has the guts to stick his head up above the parapet and own his delusional ideas. He is far better than most of the equivicoaters who try to justify their insanity. There is a paradox here I suppose. Bricker is a very decent, intelligent man with shedloads of integrity - yet with utterly horrific ideas. And I believe that those ideas come are not ones that he has reasoned himself into. They ultimately come from the mother church. This is why catholicism is evil. You should all be sympathising with Bricker and working towards the downfall of that evil religion, for when it is destroyed Bricker, freed from the shackles of popish hatred, will still be a decent and intelligent man - but now he’ll be an ally 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/285 "2013-01-09T02:53:03Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > By all means criticise Bricker’s stance in general as being ridiculous, but he does have integrity. > > He actually believes this. This is a hilarious thing to believe. But he has the guts to stick his head up above the parapet and own his delusional ideas. He is far better than most of the equivicoaters who try to justify their insanity. > > There is a paradox here I suppose. Bricker is a very decent, intelligent man with shedloads of integrity - yet with utterly horrific ideas. And I believe that those ideas come are not ones that he has reasoned himself into. They ultimately come from the mother church. I appreciate the kind words. Of course, in my view this isn’t a hilarious idea at all, but I absolutely recognize how it must seem utterly without supporting evidence to you. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/286 "2013-01-09T03:27:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I appreciate the kind words. > > Of course, in my view this isn’t a hilarious idea at all, but I absolutely recognize how it must seem utterly without supporting evidence to you. Thanks. It is a weird sentiment to communicate actually - not quite paradoxical but somewhat close to it. I am sincere in my respect for you, while at the same time sincere in my belief that some of your ideas are entirely twisted in a consistent manner, that is to fit them in with catholic doctrine. As another point, and it’s not something I’m accusing you of at all, I do wonder how many intelligent religious people are genuinely religious at all. I understand that in the US there are big social advantages from being in a church, and even outside of that there is stuff like knights of columbus and things. I had better be careful about specifying exactly who as I operate on the assumption my RL idenity may get out, but a very part of my family tree is part of the catholic church and the funny thing is when you talk to them individually in confidence only one of the ones that is still alive actually believes (in the sense of much more than being a deist) but they won’t admit it to one another. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/287 "2013-01-09T13:57:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t accept that a person has a “right” to buy this particular product. But if they do, then let the government, that is “us”, provide it. Don’t force private citizens to do so. Excellent argument for resegregating restaurants, hotels, apartment houses etc. People should be able to sell their legal products to whoever they want, correct? And yes, I think access to a critically needed drug (and adequate health care in general) is a compelling individual right. At the risk of getting I’ve-got-bucketloads-of-integrity- **Bricker** upset and stamping his feet again, a helluva lot of people agree. By the way, emergency contraceptive medication is not a superspecialized drug with no uses other than to prevent pregnancy. There are different hormonal meds that can be used, including standard birth control pills. The synthetic progestin most commonly associated with emergency contraception (levonorgestrel) is a component of some birth control pills, and is also being studied as a drug to control symptoms of menopause in older women. Now _that_ will pose an interesting dilemma for our Conscience Pharmacists. Do they decide that a woman with a prescription for levonorgestrel is too young to be using it for “legitimate” purposes? Ask to see proof of (menopausal) age? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/288 "2013-01-09T14:36:01Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Excellent argument for resegregating restaurants, hotels, apartment houses etc. No, it’s an excellent argument that a Jewish restaurant owner shouldn’t be forced to put pork on the menu. > [@](#): > > And yes, I think access to a critically needed drug (and adequate health care in general) is a compelling individual right. At the risk of getting I’ve-got-bucketloads-of-integrity- **Bricker** upset and stamping his feet again, a helluva lot of people agree. Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. But even if this is a “right”, all rights have competing interests and there is one right, religious freedom, which is explicitly in the constitution. Can you cite the part of the constitution that declares a person not only has the right to such medications but that private citizens can be compelled to sell them? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/289 "2013-01-09T17:51:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you cite the part of the constitution that declares a person not only has the right to such medications but that private citizens can be compelled to sell them? Nope. I also can’t find a constitutional clause that says that pharmacists can pick and choose what legal prescriptions they choose to fill. Your religious analogy breaks down when you consider that segregationists often used to cite the Bible as proof of the inferiority of blacks, thus justififying discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/290 "2013-01-09T18:01:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not in the slightest. There’s nothing hypocritical about disagreeing with their view. I apologize for my mistake in suggesting your were – I felt sure that you would say that the rule was not legitimate for some reason. To agree it’s legitimate and simply disagree with it is absolutely consistent and appropriate, and I hope you’ll accept my apology. Next time you “feel sure” about what I think, take a moment and pause. Perhaps my thinking is not monolithic and set in stone. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/291 "2013-01-09T18:03:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s an excellent argument that a Jewish restaurant owner shouldn’t be forced to put pork on the menu. If pork ever becomes a medication, prescribed by a professional doctor, and if a restaurant owner ever becomes a medical professional whose job it is to dispense life-saving medication, then you’ll have a point. Until then, however, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/292 "2013-01-09T18:06:00Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nope. I also can’t find a constitutional clause that says that pharmacists can pick and choose what legal prescriptions they choose to fill. You have an odd idea of what the purpose of the constitution is. It’s purpose is to delineate the powers granted by the states and the people to the federal government. So, they don’t need a clause in the constitution that tells them they can do that. The federal government needs a clause that tells them they have the authority to compel pharmacists to do it and to do so in a way that doesn’t violate the 1st amendment. > [@](#): > > Your religious analogy breaks down when you consider that segregationists often used to cite the Bible as proof of the inferiority of blacks, thus justififying discrimination. I don’t understand your point. Are you saying that the federal government can compel Jewish restaurant owners to serve pork? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/293 "2013-01-09T18:07:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If pork ever becomes a medication, prescribed by a professional doctor, and if a restaurant owner ever becomes a medical professional whose job it is to dispense life-saving medication, then you’ll have a point. Until then, however, you don’t. Can you remind me again which “life-saving medication” we’re talking about? I think a simple solution here is for any pharmacist who doesn’t want to dispense this non-life-saving medication to have information available as to where it can be purchased. Everyone wins. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/294 "2013-01-09T18:07:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Those are very general words. Since the organization (and I assume you mean the American Pharmacists Association, whose code you quote, and not the American Psychological Association, whose name you invoke) adopted the very specific resolution supporting the right of a pharmacist to refuse to dispense in accord with his conscience, then these two dictates must be read together, giving effect to each. If there remains a conflict, then the later statement overrides the earlier. Yes, I meant the American Pharmacist’s Association, not the American Psychological Association. Apologies for the error. I was referring to the post of yours quoted from another thread by CMC: > [@Bricker](#): > > If a pharmacists wishes to refuse service to someone because he doesn’t like her use of the day-after pill, then he should be allowed to do that. I originally wanted to compare the relative advantages. Allowing a pharmacist to refuse to sell contraception would engender greater liberty, but reduce the utility for the person incapable of purchasing contraception. In a “Pareto efficient” libertarian Utopia, everything is legal and everything has its price - they’d be able to get their fourth trimester abortion if they so desired. Impinging slightly on the utility of their child, perhaps, but at least they’re not a coercive actor. In reality, as long as there are alternatives available, the pharmacist should be able to exercise their freedom to refuse (within the ethical guidelines of commitment to individual and societal welfare). As it stands, I think where Bricker departs from the teaching of the Church I disagree with him most (apart from our agreement on public funding for contraception). According to the [catechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm): > [@CatechismofRCC](#): > > Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/295 "2013-01-09T18:49:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you remind me again which “life-saving medication” we’re talking about? Menorrhagia can be very serious, and I would hope that a woman who was prescribed “the pill” by her doctor to control bleeding would be able to get it from a professional pharmacist. Or maybe her body has a way of shutting that thing down. More prayer perhaps. Pregnancy itself can be very dangerous for some women with certain conditions. But I guess they should just never have sex. The sluts. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think a simple solution here is for any pharmacist who doesn’t want to dispense this non-life-saving medication to have information available as to where it can be purchased. Everyone wins. This is a good idea. Perhaps also a large sign above the store that says “THIS IS NOT A PHARMACY. THIS IS A CHRISTIAN STORE WHERE WE WILL DISPENSE JUDGEMENT AND ATTITUDE INSTEAD OF WHAT YOUR DOCTOR HAS PRESCRIBED.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/296 "2013-01-09T20:07:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Menorrhagia can be very serious, and I would hope that a woman who was prescribed “the pill” by her doctor to control bleeding would be able to get it from a professional pharmacist. Or maybe her body has a way of shutting that thing down. More prayer perhaps. Pregnancy itself can be very dangerous for some women with certain conditions. But I guess they should just never have sex. The sluts. Nice dodge. > [@](#): > > This is a good idea. Perhaps also a large sign above the store that says “THIS IS NOT A PHARMACY. THIS IS A CHRISTIAN STORE WHERE WE WILL DISPENSE JUDGEMENT AND ATTITUDE INSTEAD OF WHAT YOUR DOCTOR HAS PRESCRIBED.” Alternatively, we can just live and let live. I can’t be all that upset about someone not wanting to sell me something if they really don’t want to. I’ll find someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/297 "2013-01-09T20:55:46Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’m quite curious. How did we get from a _moral objection_ to a _religious hatred_ in one sentence? Because a religious hatred of women is what opposition to abortion is about. It’s a hate movement, no better than the KKK. Abortion is just the club they’ve chosen to beat on women with. They aren’t allowed to beat women to death for being “sluts” or rape them, so they do this instead. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Alternatively, we can just live and let live. :rolleyes: A typical right wing dodge. The bigots supposedly have the “right” to inflict their bigotry on unwilling women, and their victims should just shut up and take it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/298 "2013-01-09T21:00:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nice dodge. Yes, I’m fond of using medical facts as a “dodge”. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Alternatively, we can just live and let live. I can’t be all that upset about someone not wanting to sell me something if they really don’t want to. I’ll find someone else. Totally agree if we’re talking about a pulled pork sandwich. Totally disagree if we’re talking about providing prescription medication as prescribed by your doctor. “Live and let live?” More like “I’ll keep my religious stance, and you remain sick” There are lots and lots of examples of restrictions on business - what you can sell and what you can’t. Where you can set up a certain kind of store. However, these restrictions or other legal requirements cannot be arbitrary - there must be a very good reasons before we (the public) interfere. The providing of medication is one such “good reason” in my opinion. Getting a nice lean mutton on rye,where the mutton is sliced really thin? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/299 "2013-01-09T22:29:35Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Yes, I’m fond of using medical facts as a “dodge”. None of your “facts” support your claim that we were dealing with “life-saving medication”. That is what we in the business would call an Appeal to Emotion. > [@](#): > > Totally agree if we’re talking about a pulled pork sandwich. Totally disagree if we’re talking about providing prescription medication as prescribed by your doctor. “Live and let live?” More like “I’ll keep my religious stance, and you remain sick” If a person had a monopoly on the pharmacy business, you might have a case. But no one has such monopoly. > [@](#): > > There are lots and lots of examples of restrictions on business - what you can sell and what you can’t. Where you can set up a certain kind of store. We’re not talking about restrictions on what you can or cannot sell. We’re talking about things you must sell. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272/300 "2013-01-09T22:33:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: A typical right wing dodge. Typical nonsense from you. > [@](#): > > The bigots supposedly have the “right” to inflict their bigotry on unwilling women, and their victims should just shut up and take it. No, the “victims” are supposed to take their business elsewhere. In fact, I would expect many “non-victims” to do the same. I certainly would. And you already said you would, too. In fact, you said you’d be afraid that such a person would purposely give you dangerous medicine. If they are forced to provide the medication in question, you’ll have no way of knowing which ones are dangerous and which are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disgusting-tale-of-womans-unsucessful-search-for-emergency-contraception/374272.md?page=16)