# Dislike for Bush vs Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150 "2006-08-10T14:08:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/81 "2006-08-11T23:30:03Z")
> [@](#): > > If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. - E. M. Forster ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/82 "2006-08-11T23:45:56Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Can you provide an example where lying would be “heroic”? [/QUOTE] Easy. Lying to the Nazi SS to divert them from hidden Jews, giving a Nazi agent false information on the target and time of D-Day, telling his pursuers that an escaped slave went west instead of east, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/83 "2006-08-12T00:03:07Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Easy. Lying to the Nazi SS to divert them from hidden Jews, giving a Nazi agent false information on the target and time of D-Day, telling his pursuers that an escaped slave went west instead of east, and so on. [/QUOTE] OK, I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/84 "2006-08-12T14:45:52Z")
Most of the following is anecdotal, so I’m hesitant to bring it up in GD. Having said that: Both sides have their nutcase fringes. Right-wing idiots like Jerry Falwell who believe that Clinton murdered 60 people back in Arkansas and covered it all up. Left-wing idiots like Cynthia McKinney who believe that the Bush administration knew about the 9/11 attacks and let them happen as a favor to their defense contractor friends. Nuts on both sides. Duly noted. However, as you start to step away from the fringe, IMO, _the right is more willing to believe the straw men they create._ One example is the right’s success in manufacturing satirical hyper-PC phrases (e.g., “vertically-challenged”) and convince many of their own that not only did liberals make these up seriously, but that they are standard usage for anyone left of center. I offer a couple of anecdotal examples. A very conservative mathematician I once worked with was adamant that Clinton had, if not ordered Vince Foster’s murder, at least covered it up. We sparred endlessly on this – he dismissed anyone who didn’t agree with him as part of the Clinton ‘conspiracy’. I felt vindicated when Ken Starr, who had been examining the case, very publicly announced ca. 1996 that there was no evidence of foul play in the matter. I carried the newspaper to my colleague’s office. How could he dispute this? Was Ken Starr part of the Clinton conspiracy? His reply (paraphrased from my 10-year old memory): No, Starr wasn’t part of the conspiracy. But this latest move was obviously an attempt to spoof the perpetrators into believing that the heat was off, so they could talk, at which time, the real truth would come out. :eek: A second anecdote: I later shared this story with another conservative colleague and long-time friend, equally intelligent and educated. He haltingly stated that he still didn’t believe we knew the whole truth about the Vince Foster matter. Please understand: neither of these guys are nuts – both are very intelligent professionals with master’s degrees. Which is my whole point here. Over the last couple of decades, the right has been much more united than the left. It doesn’t seem especially far-fetched to me to believe that a more united party would give the benefit of the doubt to beliefs that serve victory. This spirit is summed up in the "11th-commandment"quote attributed to Ronald Reagan: “Thou shalt never speak ill of another Republican”. The very principled Barry Goldwater, spiritual father of the modern conservative movement, famously asserted that he’d “rather be right than be president”. The assertion implies that such a prioritization is necessary. Goldwater’s landslide defeat, at the hands of a really unprincipled Democrat, may have caused his descendents to question this priority. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/85 "2006-08-12T17:50:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] You know, like getting involved in a military conflict without UN approval. [/quote] You do know better than that, but then, it would get in the way of taking a shot, wouldn’t it? The lack of “UN” approval for the anti-Serbia operation was in fact the lack of _Russian_ approval, involving their Security Council veto, for something that would oppose the interests of their old ally. The general support of the rest of the civilized world for proceeding with stopping the genocide anyway speaks for itself. The lack of UN support for Bush’s Iraq invasion was in fact the lack of support for it by the rest of the civilized world but the strong-armed UK and self-interested Australia and Spain. In both cases, the bulk of the civilized world was right. Party politics had nothing to do with it, although it’s certainly a convenient rationalization for those who do not share the attitudes of the civilized world. > [@](#): > > I can imagine what the Bush-hating left would have had to say about the Waco disaster had it happened on Bush’s watch. Great, a two-fer: Counterfactual hypothetical _and_ a tu quoque. Great argument, **Sam** , well done. 😛 **srmclauren** , in what way do you think Clinton actually \*was \* “unfaithful to his country”? Are there any actual examples _in fact_ that you can point to, or was that just more empty hypocritical moralization? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/86 "2006-08-12T21:29:58Z")
[QUOTE=F. U. Shakespeare] However, as you start to step away from the fringe, IMO, _the right is more willing to believe the straw men they create._ [/quote] Thanks for your anecdotes. I have ones about very intelligent people I know insisting that Starr’s inability to find evidence of Clinton’s criminality simply meant that Clinton was \*hiding \* the evidence. > [@](#): > > He haltingly stated that he still didn’t believe we knew the whole truth about the Vince Foster matter. We still hear people claim, even on this board, that we still don’t know the whole truth about Saddam’s WMD’s, either. I’d attribute most of the True Believers’ strong reluctance, even refusal, to admit they’d been fooled to simple human nature. We all hate to admit that to others, sometimes even more so to ourselves. Overall intelligence is not a factor other than to be a deterrent, not a guarantee, against being fooled in the first place. > [@](#): > > The very principled Barry Goldwater, spiritual father of the modern conservative movement, famously asserted that he’d “rather be right than be president”. That one goes back into the 19th century, along with the best retort: > [@](#): > > The watershed year was ’94 all right — 1894. The GOP House leader was Thomas Brackett Reed of Maine. > > Reed entered the House in 1876 and had distinguished himself in committee assignments, becoming an expert on the rules. He had served as chairman of the Rules Committee and already spent a term as Speaker of the House when the Republicans last controlled the chamber for the 51st Congress (1889-91). > > Reed also had a reputation of having “a tongue that at one stroke sliced the whiskers off his opponents’ faces.” When a congressional rival once stated he would rather be right than president, Reed responded: “The gentlemen need not worry. He will never be either.” ---
**Author:** ![srmclauren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@srmclauren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srmclauren)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/87 "2006-08-14T03:16:29Z")
**srmclauren** , in what way do you think Clinton actually \*was \* “unfaithful to his country”? Are there any actual examples _in fact_ that you can point to, or was that just more empty hypocritical moralization? [/QUOTE] Mainly I remember the perjury as the most obvious, blatant example. I guess we can dismiss that one because he meant well? He lied but we forgave him. Websters definition of faithful only fits one Person perfectly, so I guess I’m an immoral hypocrite in comparison. That’s why I trust His grace and mercy. I still have to hate and expose evil, even if it’s in myself. faithful - adj. 1. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant 2. reliable; trusted, or believed 3. adhering or true to fact… Judge for yourself…but be merciful even if you judge rightly. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/88 "2006-08-14T04:32:15Z")
The day I saw Bush’s response to the Illinois governor saying he was going to stop executitions because it was proven that innocent men had been put to death. He said Texas had never executed an innocent man. He was lying or crazy. Not good choices for president. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/89 "2006-08-16T13:33:12Z")
[QUOTE=F. U. Shakespeare] Over the last couple of decades, the right has been much more united than the left. [/QUOTE] As the old saw goes, “I do not belong to any organized political party - I’m a Democrat.” [iIIF\* I were going to argue that Clinton was unfaithful to his country, I imagine I would point out his avoidance of military service, his arguable prostitution of the office to a group of insiders, his lack of respect for the office, and the military secrets to China scandal. IMO each individual has to decide whether those (and any other) transgressions are worse than the lives and $ Bush has cost us by leading us into an unecessary and uninterminable war. There is another aspect of Bush/Clinton hate I’m trying to get my mind around, based on personal anecdotes. Something subtly different about the way folks on different ends of the spectrum criticize/praise individuals/groups. It seems as tho the Repubs direct their criticism at specific personalities - such as Clinton. And much of the criticism is often directed at inaction - the attempt at health care reform comes immediately to mind. At the same time, they criticize Dems as a group. For example, if you criticize anything about previous Repub admins, you will be reminded that that any undesireable results were the fault of the Dem majority in Congress. I readily acknowledge that many Dems do not respect Bush as an individual. But I suspect most folk would prefer that he were snorting coke and getting blowjobs in the oval office, if it distracted him from some of his administration’s efforts. Which leads back to the idea that the Repubs are simply a more unified and effective group in getting their ageda passed… Sorry if this is rambling… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/90 "2006-08-16T15:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] Mainly I remember the perjury as the most obvious, blatant example. I guess we can dismiss that one because he meant well? He lied but we forgave him. [/quote] Ummm, he was impeached, settled a law suit, and lost his law license. That’s not what I would call “forgiving” him. And if you cannot tell the difference between the ramifications between perjury about a blowjob and misleading the country into an unjust war, your priorities are seriously messed up. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/91 "2006-08-16T15:07:46Z")
It depends on what you hate more. Take your pick. War-monger or whore-monger, I see a big difference between the two. We can live with one. I’m not so sure about the other. A lot of folks obviously haven’t. But then I’m from Texas… I’ve had enough of the Bush family retard for many years now. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/92 "2006-08-16T15:10:12Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The day I saw Bush’s response to the Illinois governor saying he was going to stop executitions because it was proven that innocent men had been put to death. He said Texas had never executed an innocent man. He was lying or crazy. Not good choices for president. [/QUOTE] I think your memory is a bit fuzzy. Can you produce a cite that supports your version of what the Illinois governor said, and can we have a cite that proves Texas had executed anyone who was innocent? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/93 "2006-08-16T15:11:24Z")
Oops. That was my emphasis added to your post, **gonzomax**. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/94 "2006-08-16T15:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by gonzomax > The day I saw Bush’s response to the Illinois governor saying he was going to stop executitions because it was proven that innocent men had been put to death. He said Texas had never executed an innocent man. He was lying or crazy. Not good choices for president. > I think your memory is a bit fuzzy. Can you produce a cite that supports your version of what the Illinois governor said, and can we have a cite that proves Texas had executed anyone who was innocent? Illinois Governor George Ryan: > [@](#): > > Less than two weeks ago, Cook County prosecutors dropped charges against Steve Manning, a former Chicago police officer whose conviction and death sentence rested upon the word of a jailhouse informant and chronic liar. The Tribune exposed the holes in the prosecution’s case in a five-part series, “The Failure of the Death Penalty in Illinois,” published in November. > > … > Ryan still supports the death penalty but is deeply troubled by the prevalence of wrongful convictions and flawed prosecutions, Culloton said. > > “He can’t answer the central question: How do you prevent another Anthony Porter?” Culloton said. “The series helped crystallize it and put it all together.” > **[NameBright - Coming Soon](http://www.truthinjustice.org/haltdp.htm)** So, not a proven wrongful conviction with death penalty, but one shown to have serious flaws. On Texas’ system: > [@](#): > > Lawrence Marshall, the Northwestern University law professor > who helped free five wrongly accused men from Illinois’s death row, > says Texas deserves a reputation far worse than his state’s. “Illinois > has been a lot more accurate about who it sentences to death than a > whole lot of other states,” he told me shortly after Ryan announced > his moratorium. “Our procedures are a whole lot more careful than, for > example, Texas. We give people better lawyers, generally speaking, and > more protection at trial. .. . Texas is worse, I’m sure, in > convicting innocent people and it’s worse in not giving people who are > innocent the opportunity to prove it.” > > … > > In another Texas case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th > Circuit ordered death row inmate Federico Martinez-Macias freed in > 1993 because of attorney incompetence. Judge Patrick Higginbotham > noted that the defendant’s attorney had been paid $11.84 an hour and > “the justice system got only what it paid for.” > > … > The last hurdle before execution–what Bush has called the > “fail-safe”–is the clemency process. Nine states, including Texas, > allow a governor to grant a pardon or reprieve only if it has been > recommended by a clemency board. Bush has written that he has > confidence in the recommendations of the Texas Board of Pardons and > Paroles (BPP). But the BPP has proved to be little more than a rubber > stamp of death sentences. > > Its review process came in for withering criticism in December > 1998, when U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks heard a civil action against > the BPP brought by two death row inmates. During two days of hearings, > Sparks noted that the board–two-thirds of whose 18 members were > appointed by Bush–had never held a hearing on a single death row > clemency appeal. > **[law-forensic.com](http://www.law-forensic.com/wcrc_washington_post.htm)** > > Find the best information and most relevant links on all topics related to law-forensic.com. Buy this domain. | More domains at Seo.Domains Again, no execution of anyone proven innocent, but a release of someone on death row upon oproof that the defence was extremely inadequate. That’s enough for me – I’m not bloodthirtsy enough to want actual wrongful executions. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/95 "2006-08-16T15:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think your memory is a bit fuzzy. Can you produce a cite that supports your version of what the Illinois governor said, and can we have a cite that proves Texas had executed anyone who was innocent? [/QUOTE] Of the 150 or so executed during Bush’s reign in Austin, do you really think that all 150 were truly guilty? Not one was railroaded by the system or poorly represented by a disinterested court-appointed attorney? What is most telling of Bush’s character is this snippet from [Tucker Carlson’s profile fo Bush in the premiere issue of Talk](http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr080999.html) > [@](#): > > In the week before [Karla Faye Tucker’s] execution, Bush says, Bianca Jagger and a number of other protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Tucker. “Did you meet with any of them?” I ask. > > Bush whips around and stares at me. “No, I didn’t meet with any of them,” he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with [Tucker], though. He asked her real difficult questions, like ‘What would you say to Governor Bush?’ " > > “What was her answer?” I wonder. > > “Please,” Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, “don’t kill me.” So as governor he mocked a woman begging to be spared execution. Whether she was guilty or not, whether she deserved to die or not, here is a man mocking another human pleading for her life. This is the true character of this man. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/96 "2006-08-16T16:43:56Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Illinois Governor George Ryan: > **[NameBright - Coming Soon](http://www.truthinjustice.org/haltdp.htm)** So, not a proven wrongful conviction with death penalty, but one shown to have serious flaws. On Texas’ system: > **[law-forensic.com](http://www.law-forensic.com/wcrc_washington_post.htm)** > > Find the best information and most relevant links on all topics related to law-forensic.com. Buy this domain. | More domains at Seo.Domains Again, no execution of anyone proven innocent, but a release of someone on death row upon oproof that the defence was extremely inadequate. That’s enough for me – I’m not bloodthirtsy enough to want actual wrongful executions. [/QUOTE] Thanks for digging up those cites. I’m anti-death penalty and anti-Bush. I just don’t see why people feel the need to make up stuff in order to bloster either argument. Yes, the death penalty looks like it has serious flaws in it, and yes Bush seems overly cavalier about it. Neither of those things supports the erroneous statemenst made by **gonzomax**. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/97 "2006-08-16T16:52:56Z")
You guys are SOL if you think Texas is gonna admit to executing an innocent person. They quit trying the case asap. Sometimes even before the case starts. The mentality is “even if they aren’t guilty of this, they’re guilty of something.” They damn sure ain’t gonna let it be proven AFTER the execution. The ONLY way that’s gonna happen is if somebody else confesses to the crime that isn’t currently incarcerated. Yeah, that’s gonna happen. Even then the confessor would be played off as insane. Hah…that won’t stop’em down here. Hell, we execute the insane too. Men, women, children, sick or insane it don’t matter. They’ll stick it to 'em. You think I’m kidding? I don’t recall the defense lawyers’ name but he used to sleep during the cases. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150/98 "2006-08-17T08:50:30Z")
warmonger v. whoremonger heh 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dislike-for-bush-vs-clinton/368150.md?page=4)