# Dismissing people as crazy and not educating them or trying to inform them is a problem. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116 "2019-04-06T06:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/41 "2019-04-08T22:57:17Z")
There is some evidence (sorry, no cite) that when people are given evidence refuting their beliefs, it only hardens their position. As noted above, you cannot reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. I’ve also heard claims from religious types that we are opposing god’s will by a) using vaccines or b) fighting climate change. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/42 "2019-04-09T00:30:56Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There is some evidence (sorry, no cite) that when people are given evidence refuting their beliefs, it only hardens their position. As noted above, you cannot reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. [_The New Yorker_: “Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds”](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/43 "2019-04-09T13:45:42Z")
People with ridiculous, unsupported beliefs have always existed. The internet has done two things: it has let these people find each other, and algorithms created by the advertising companies\* these people rely on to reach one another encourages them to fall ever-further down the rabbit hole. \*Google, Facebook, and their subsidiaries. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/44 "2019-04-09T16:09:17Z")
[Dunning–Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) > [@](#): > > the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence. Stupid people who do not realize they are stupid. They actually think they are _smarter_ than your average bear. These are folks who make a deeply flawed argument and never even consider that they could be mistaken. Some folks make it a proud announcement of ignorance. “I know this and nothing will convince me otherwise”. They may as well say “I will hold on to my stupidity and will not be swayed by _facts_!” ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/45 "2019-04-09T16:21:56Z")
My Grandma used to have a refrigerator magnet that read: God said it. I believe it. That ends it. She was totally perplexed when I told her that the first three words were effectively unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/46 "2019-04-09T16:51:44Z")
There do exist people who hold these ideas purely because they lack information and can be convinced. I’m not sure what the relative percentage is although I suspect that it is smaller on the internet than it is in real life. For such people A quick citation may be able to debunk what the misinformation that they have heard and set them on the right track. So if someone writes “I don’t vaccinate my child because I’ve heard it causes Autism and I think better safe than sorry.” It is probably worthwhile posting a link to the CDC that strongly advocates vaccine and maybe one that debunks the Wakefield study. If they respond with some reasonable easily debunked concerns, for example that the diseases that people vaccinate for are so rare that even without the autism connection its still not worth it do to the side effect, a second post may be warranted to address those, but if they start talking about the evils of Big Pharma hurting children for profits, or if they keep bringing up different reasons to stick with their position, give up you aren’t going to change their mind and are just going to make them feel persecuted. Still I think an initial debunking post is worthwhile. Even if you don’t convince the person you are arguing with there might be others who are less firmly planted in their beliefs who might believe the original poster if you leave their ideas unchallenged. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/47 "2019-04-09T18:32:52Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > There do exist people who hold these ideas purely because they lack information and can be convinced. I’m not sure what the relative percentage is although I suspect that it is smaller on the internet than it is in real life. For such people A quick citation may be able to debunk what the misinformation that they have heard and set them on the right track. The problem is that there is conflicting information, and people are not good at deciding which is valid. As far as I’ve seen, knowing someone whose child got autism supposedly after being vaccinated - or even seeing someone say this on YouTube - trumps any amount of statistics from the CDC or WHO. Instead of showing that, maybe talking about children who died from the measles would be more effective. 110,000 children died from the measles worldwide in 2017, I bet most anti-vaxxers don’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/48 "2019-04-09T18:51:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The problem is that there is conflicting information, and people are not good at deciding which is valid. As far as I’ve seen, knowing someone whose child got autism supposedly after being vaccinated - or even seeing someone say this on YouTube - trumps any amount of statistics from the CDC or WHO. > Instead of showing that, maybe talking about children who died from the measles would be more effective. 110,000 children died from the measles worldwide in 2017, I bet most anti-vaxxers don’t know that. An anecdote carries a lot more punch to it. It personalizes things. “My son got autism after the vaccination” rings with greater resonance than “a hundred thousand children died of measles last year.” The latter, presented mathematically, comes across as a statistic, which has little emotional effect. The solution is to present preventable, vaccinate-able, diseases in graphic nature. Bring out the anecdotes of “so and so died an easy, preventable death that could have been averted by a vaccine”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/49 "2019-04-10T00:00:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The problem is that there is conflicting information, and people are not good at deciding which is valid. As far as I’ve seen, knowing someone whose child got autism supposedly after being vaccinated - or even seeing someone say this on YouTube - trumps any amount of statistics from the CDC or WHO. > Instead of showing that, maybe talking about children who died from the measles would be more effective. 110,000 children died from the measles worldwide in 2017, I bet most anti-vaxxers don’t know that. That would not impress the typical antivaxer, who would respond: 1. those statistics are fake 2. measles is just a rash and besides if you get it you wind up with lifetime immunity 3. those children would never have gotten measles or died if it wasn’t for bad sanitation/nutrition/inferior medical care in poor countries 4. what about the CDC whistleblower conspiracy? 5. your\* a pharma shill \*good grammar and critical thinking skills are inimical to the antivaxer set. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/50 "2019-04-10T00:24:40Z")
And I can’t properly number lists, but hell, it’s late and I’m beat. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/51 "2019-04-10T00:41:32Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And I can’t properly number lists, but hell, it’s late and I’m beat. Nah, it just adds authenticity. Though next time consider more caps. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/52 "2019-04-10T05:42:32Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > 1. your\* a pharma shill This one really gets to me. My wife wrote two pro-vaccine books without one penny of funding from big pharma. Damn it. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/53 "2019-04-10T16:43:56Z")
I’ll still fight ignorance diplomatically but persistently, but I’m focusing on minimizing the dangers anti-vaxxers impose on the public. Washington state is considering removing its ill-advised philosophical exemptions AND the standard religious exemption, so I contact state legislators often to try to counter the efforts of the anti-vaxxers, who not only rallied on the Capital steps not long ago but penned an open letter calling vaccinations “medical rape” and adopting the #ustoo hashtag. There are loopholes, of course, and anti-vaxxers will use them. In WA, naturopaths, who are vehemently anti-vaxx, are allowed to be primary care providers. They’ll happily falsify documents to get medical exemptions. Think how much we could accomplish if we weren’t fighting so much ignorance so much of the time. It’s exhausting. I don’t know how Uncle Cecil did it. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116/54 "2019-04-11T02:39:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into Short and to the point. Perfect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dismissing-people-as-crazy-and-not-educating-them-or-trying-to-inform-them-is-a-problem/832116.md?page=2)