# Disneyland Measles Outbreak **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529 "2015-01-21T23:14:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/261 "2015-01-28T16:50:28Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Are you kidding me with this crap? > > This isn’t a disagreement. This isn’t how you feel about something. This is deliberate refusal to engage in public health measures to prevent the spread of a dangerous and contagious disease. I’m not interested in hearing from someone who is so stupid that she thinks vaccines contain dangerous chemicals and kill people. I’m interested in making sure she doesn’t infect other people with something that could kill people. > > Really. > > I don’t give a shit that you think that you can make nice-nice with measles by washing your hands or eating organic and not being one of those filthy third worlders who don’t really matter. I’m interested in making sure that that you don’t infect me or my family or my kids with measles or any other vaccine-preventable disease. > > You refuse vaccines? You want to act like a child who wants to pretend he can do whatever he wants without consequences? Okay. Fine. When there’s a measles outbreak you go sit the corner. You stay there while the grownups combat it. You get a time out not because we’re big meany poopy heads. You get one so your kid and my kid and the neighbor with cancer don’t get preventable diseases. > > That’s not discrimination. That’s not a dystopia. That’s not writing people off. It’s protecting public health. You are fucked up and so are the people you are so pitifully defending. You seem to be confusing me with some other people. When did I say I wash my hands? Or eat organic food? Or don’t care about people in less-developed countries? Or set public health policy? Enjoy feeding your self-righteous high and whipping yourself into a frenzy until you wear yourself out. Maybe you’ll feel better after a nap. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/262 "2015-01-28T17:11:45Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > You seem to be confusing me with some other people. When did I say I wash my hands? Or eat organic food? Or don’t care about people in less-developed countries? Or set public health policy? > Enjoy feeding your self-righteous high and whipping yourself into a frenzy until you wear yourself out. Maybe you’ll feel better after a nap. Oh shut up already. You alternate between smug and dumb. For someone who seems hell bent on defending the anti-vaxers, you sure don’t seem to spend much time interacting with them. That is how they think. They’ll eat organic, wash their hands and the measles won’t bother them so no vax necessary. Why don’t you tell my friend [Stacy](http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/why-measles-outbreaks-terrify-me/) to calm down. Go on. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/263 "2015-01-28T17:20:54Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Oh shut up already. You alternate between smug and dumb. For someone who seems hell bent on defending the anti-vaxers, you sure don’t seem to spend much time interacting with them. That is how they think. They’ll eat organic, wash their hands and the measles won’t bother them so no vax necessary. > > Why don’t you tell my friend [Stacy](http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/why-measles-outbreaks-terrify-me/) to calm down. Go on. I “seem” the way you think I seem because that’s your viewpoint. Now I should spend _more_ time with anti-vaxxers? I thought they were supposed to anger and terrify me and should be avoided so as not to catch anything? And why would I tell Stacy to calm down? She’s not hurling insults or ranting at me. If she’s in a hysterical frenzy of some sort, then she should indeed calm down, but I have no reason to suspect that that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/264 "2015-01-28T17:23:44Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I “seem” the way you think I seem because that’s your viewpoint. > Now I should spend _more_ time with anti-vaxxers? I thought they were supposed to anger and terrify me and should be avoided so as not to catch anything? > > And why would I tell Stacy to calm down? She’s not hurling insults or ranting at me. If she’s in a hysterical frenzy of some sort, then she should indeed calm down, but I have no reason to suspect that that is the case. You seem the way you do because you are writing really dumb posts here defending people who do dumb things. Dumb contagious things. And then telling us who object to such actions that we’re being crazy and overreacting. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/265 "2015-01-28T17:52:49Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You seem the way you do because you are writing really dumb posts here defending people who do dumb things. Dumb contagious things. And then telling us who object to such actions that we’re being crazy and overreacting. That’s your interpretation of what I said, based, it seems, on what other people who you think are “like me” have said to you in the past. I’m sorry you have been hurt by threats and insults for writing your book, but that doesn’t make it okay or constructive to take your pain and frustration out on someone who has nothing to do with that. I have not said you are crazy or overreacting for objecting to anything. You are ranting and insulting, not objecting. Like I said, you are in the right place to rant, I guess, so go for it, but it seems pretty crazy that you think rejecting compassion and sympathy for fellow human beings makes you one of the “good guys.” Feeling the need to be harsh to “fight evil” certainly has historical precedent, but I hope never to resign myself to this belief. Anyway, I already know you think I’m a fabulous person, as I do vaccinate, so I’m just going to enjoy my pat on the back. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/266 "2015-01-28T17:57:05Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > It’s easy to write off a group of nameless faceless “bad guys” that must be stopped from indirectly harming others at any cost, but if you encounter actual nice people, talking to them like human beings makes more sense. It doesn’t [work](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365), btw. > [@](#): > > [Measles Can Kill, And It's Spreading. Sue Parents Who Didn't Vaccinate? Absolutely.](http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/01/28/measles-is-spreading-and-kids-might-die-sue-parents-who-didnt-vaccinate-absolutely/) > > Brendan Nyhan, an excellent political scientist at Dartmouth University, has done pathbreaking research into convincing anti-vaxxers to back off their flawed ideas. > > His team’s disturbing findings: Trying to educate anti-vaccine parents only forces them to retreat further into their shell. Attempting to correct false beliefs about vaccines “may be especially likely to be counterproductive,” Nyhan dryly notes. > > For instance, “when [researchers] gave evidence that vaccines aren’t linked to autism, that actually made parents who were already skittish about vaccines less likely to get their child one in the future,” Dr. Aaron Carroll writes at The Incidental Economist, summarizing Nyhan’s research. “When they told a dramatic story about an infant in danger because he wasn’t immunized, it increased parents’ beliefs that vaccines had serious side effects.” You have anymore unworkable ideas you want to share with the class? Or are you just going to whine that people are ranting in a place designed for such behavior? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/267 "2015-01-28T17:59:14Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > That’s your interpretation of what I said, based, it seems, on what other people who you think are “like me” have said to you in the past. I’m sorry you have been hurt by threats and insults for writing your book, but that doesn’t make it okay or constructive to take your pain and frustration out on someone who has nothing to do with that. > > I have not said you are crazy or overreacting for objecting to anything. You are ranting and insulting, not objecting. Like I said, you are in the right place to rant, I guess, so go for it, but it seems pretty crazy that you think rejecting compassion and sympathy for fellow human beings makes you one of the “good guys.” Feeling the need to be harsh to “fight evil” certainly has historical precedent, but I hope never to resign myself to this belief. > > Anyway, I already know you think I’m a fabulous person, as I do vaccinate, so I’m just going to enjoy my pat on the back. Compassion and sympathy isn’t patting stupid people on the back and letting them spread disease. You think you’re so much better but all you’re doing is proposing methods that don’t work and letting others spread infectious diseases. That’s not very fabulous at all. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/268 "2015-01-28T21:16:12Z")
Forgive the intrusion, everyone, but I have a vaccine related question and I didn’t want to open a new thread while this one was so active. Anti-vaxxers like to argue that vaccines are dangerous because they contain adjuvant chemicals like aluminium and formaldehyde. Now, it’s common knowledge that the amounts of those chemicals in the shots is negligible. For instance, there is far more formaldehyde in, say, a pear than there is in a vaccine. However, anti-vaxxers typically allege that the formaldehyde in a vaccine is far more dangerous to infants than the formaldehyde in any food because it is injected intramuscularly, rather than ingested. Now, I do not see why this should be and it seems to me that this is a claim for them to prove rather than for us to debunk. However, as we all know, asking an anti-vaxxer to prove anything is like asking a snail to kick a puddle up a hill. For my future reference does anybody know of any quick and easy rebuttals to this claim? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/269 "2015-01-28T21:22:00Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > However, anti-vaxxers typically allege that the formaldehyde in a vaccine is far more dangerous to infants than the formaldehyde in any food because it is injected intramuscularly, rather than ingested. Now, I do not see why this should be and it seems to me that this is a claim for them to prove rather than for us to debunk. However, as we all know, asking an anti-vaxxer to prove anything is like asking a snail to kick a puddle up a hill. For my future reference does anybody know of any quick and easy rebuttals to this claim? > > Thanks in advance. Here’s a [chart](http://rtavm.blogspot.com/2013/02/text-ingestion-vs.html) that explains this allegation from a group I belong to online. Hope that helps! My husband the chemical engineer starts laughing himself silly when I show him people who will say that the vaccine is bad because it contains “artificial formaldehyde.” ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/270 "2015-01-28T23:33:27Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > It doesn’t [work](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365), btw. > > You have anymore unworkable ideas you want to share with the class? Or are you just going to whine that people are ranting in a place designed for such behavior? That is nothing like any of my ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/271 "2015-01-28T23:50:23Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > … like asking a snail to kick a puddle up a hill. (snip) This is an awesome simile. Just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/272 "2015-01-29T00:00:35Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > That is nothing like any of my ideas. Your ideas are a) whining about rudeness in the pit, b) advertising that does [NOT](http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pro-vaccine-messages-actually-backfire-study-finds-n41611) work and complaining that we are," insulting . . . shunning . . . [and showing] hostility" to such people. Also idiotically asserting, “that any actual children in question should be quarantined as collateral damage is crazy.” You have ego not ideas. Is quarantining kids who can’t get vaccinated when an outbreak happens also crazy? Why the hell shouldn’t a kid who hasn’t been vaccinated be removed from a potential source of infection? Why do you care more about honoring a bad parenting decision than protecting kids from diseases like measles? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/273 "2015-01-29T01:36:36Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > That’s your interpretation of what I said, based, it seems, on what other people who you think are “like me” have said to you in the past. I’m sorry you have been hurt by threats and insults for writing your book, but that doesn’t make it okay or constructive to take your pain and frustration out on someone who has nothing to do with that. Actually, from where I sit you are in fact acting both condescendingly and idiotically. There is a point where one has to, for the safety of the greater whole, stop coddling ignorance and misinformation. During a disease outbreak is one of those times. > [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Forgive the intrusion, everyone, but I have a vaccine related question and I didn’t want to open a new thread while this one was so active. > > Anti-vaxxers like to argue that vaccines are dangerous because they contain adjuvant chemicals like aluminium and formaldehyde. Now, it’s common knowledge that the amounts of those chemicals in the shots is negligible. For instance, there is far more formaldehyde in, say, a pear than there is in a vaccine. However, anti-vaxxers typically allege that the formaldehyde in a vaccine is far more dangerous to infants than the formaldehyde in any food because it is injected intramuscularly, rather than ingested. Now, I do not see why this should be and it seems to me that this is a claim for them to prove rather than for us to debunk. However, as we all know, asking an anti-vaxxer to prove anything is like asking a snail to kick a puddle up a hill. For my future reference does anybody know of any quick and easy rebuttals to this claim? How about the fact that the human body produces formaldehyde as a part of _normal metabolism?_ The human body has a means of detoxifying and eliminating those small amounts that are a natural part of metabolism, and these processes work in infants as well as adults. The amount present, if any, in a vaccination is swiftly dealt with by the human body. It’s a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/274 "2015-01-29T03:04:58Z")
I haven’t studied anamen’s other thread posts, but I for one would not be surprised if he turns out to be a zit faced 14 year dork wanking over this thread. Jus’ sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/275 "2015-01-29T12:16:09Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Forgive the intrusion, everyone, but I have a vaccine related question and I didn’t want to open a new thread while this one was so active. > > Anti-vaxxers like to argue that vaccines are dangerous because they contain adjuvant chemicals like aluminium and formaldehyde. Now, it’s common knowledge that the amounts of those chemicals in the shots is negligible. For instance, there is far more formaldehyde in, say, a pear than there is in a vaccine. However, anti-vaxxers typically allege that the formaldehyde in a vaccine is far more dangerous to infants than the formaldehyde in any food because it is injected intramuscularly, rather than ingested. Now, I do not see why this should be and it seems to me that this is a claim for them to prove rather than for us to debunk. However, as we all know, asking an anti-vaxxer to prove anything is like asking a snail to kick a puddle up a hill. For my future reference does anybody know of any quick and easy rebuttals to this claim? > > Thanks in advance. **Broomstick** and **LavenderBlue** have provided great information, but the _actual_ quick and easy rebuttal is to say, “Fuck you and yours for making innocent kids suffer, your knowledge is bullshit and nothing I can say will change that.” Then pop a wheelie on a rad motorbike and ride into the sunset while flipping them off and kissing a pretty person on the mouth. Quick and easy for you, that is. Save your sanity, accept they’re a lost cause, and go and fly a kite or something relaxing (unless there’s no wind because then you’ll be all, “fuck this lame kite shit”). You can’t reason somebody out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. I learnt that from this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/276 "2015-01-29T13:37:09Z")
Good information refuting the “toxin gambit” used by antivaxers can be found in the following links: > **[Toxic myths about vaccines](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/)** > > Antivaccine activists would have you believe that vaccines are loaded with "toxins" and are therefore dangerous. While there are some chemicals that sound scary in some vaccines, they dose makes the p > **[Demystifying Vaccine Ingredients - Formaldehyde](https://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients.html)** > > There seems to be a lot of fear and confusion surrounding many of the ingredients (PDF) that are listed as being in vaccines. Many of them... [http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html](http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html) For instance: “So what’s the most (formaldehyde from vaccines) a child might get in a single office visit? That would probably be at their 6 month visit (when they are, on average, 16.5lbs or 7.5kg) with HepB, DTaP, IPV and flu, for a total of 307.5μg. That is about 160 times less than the total amount their body naturally produces every single day\*. Compare that to the 428.4-1,516.4μg of formaldehyde in a single apple.” “The aluminum contained in vaccines is similar to that found in a liter (about 1 quart or 32 fluid ounces) of infant formula. While infants receive about 4.4 milligrams\* of aluminum in the first six months of life from vaccines, they receive more than that in their diet. Breast-fed infants ingest about 7 milligrams, formula-fed infants ingest about 38 milligrams, and infants who are fed soy formula ingest almost 117 milligrams of aluminum during the same period.” And as noted earlier, these tiny amounts of vaccine “toxins” are routinely and safely processed by the body, regardless of whether they are ingested or injected. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/277 "2015-01-29T14:54:00Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Your ideas are a) whining about rudeness in the pit, b) advertising that does [NOT](http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pro-vaccine-messages-actually-backfire-study-finds-n41611) work and complaining that we are," insulting . . . shunning . . . [and showing] hostility" to such people. Also idiotically asserting, “that any actual children in question should be quarantined as collateral damage is crazy.” > > You have ego not ideas. Is quarantining kids who can’t get vaccinated when an outbreak happens also crazy? Why the hell shouldn’t a kid who hasn’t been vaccinated be removed from a potential source of infection? Why do you care more about honoring a bad parenting decision than protecting kids from diseases like measles? > > :dubious: You can’t really think that a few weak test instances of “marketing” not working means that marketing simply doesn’t work. The existence of a failed ad campaign does not mean no ad campaigns are ever successful. Teams of skilled, experienced, and creative people spend many, many hours putting together successful marketing efforts for things like consumer products. A CDC worker or professor drawing up a pamphlet or choosing a photo of a sick baby or whatever does not compare to a professional campaign. If it did, we would not have a $30 billion advertising industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/278 "2015-01-29T15:10:24Z")
[At least 95 cases in eight states and Mexico.](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-outbreak-20150128-story.html) > [@](#): > > Los Angeles _Times_, 28 Jan. > > The California Department of Public Health confirmed that there are now 79 cases in the state, of which 52 can be linked directly to Disneyland. Some people who were contagious visited in January as well as December. > > Officials reported one case in Michigan that was connected to the California outbreak. Cases have also been confirmed in Arizona (five), Utah (three), Washington state (two), Oregon (one), Colorado (one), Nebraska (one) and Mexico (two). > > The measles outbreak has also expanded beyond those who visited Disneyland in December and January and is infecting people in the broader community. > > Nine counties in California have confirmed measles cases: Alameda, Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego, San Mateo, Santa Clara and Ventura. > > Orange County now has 25 confirmed cases. Los Angeles County follows with 16 cases and San Diego County with 13. > > The California patients range in age from 7 months to 70 years. The vaccination status is known for at least 42 of the patients. Of those, 34 were unvaccinated, three received partial vaccination and five were fully vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Miss-Informed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8dc957/32.png) [@Miss-Informed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss-Informed)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/279 "2015-01-29T15:15:32Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Another Offit point has to do with “hiding in the herd.” Offit accuses Sears of advising parents not to tell others that they aren’t vaccinating and finds this objectionable. Sears does say something to that effect, but I’m not going to look it up to clarify the context, because it doesn’t matter. > > Why is this harmful advice for the rest of us? People follow the example of their peers all the time. If you aren’t going to vaccinate, I agree, you should at least have the decency to shut up about it so as not to encourage others to do the same. Whether you are a selfish sociopath or a misguided nice person, it’s to your advantage AND everyone else’s. The objection “no, you should vaccinate” is a non-sequitur here. > > Acknowledging that a group exists and expressing approval of that group are two different things. Forgive me if this has been covered, but I read the whole thing and I don’t remember seeing anyone address this. Would not the danger of “hiding in the herd” be that other people are not aware of the non-vaccinated status of these children, and so could not then take precautions to keep away from them? If, for example, there was an outbreak of measles or pertussis going around, and a person knew that someone’s kids were not vaccinated, wouldn’t it be useful information so they could keep their own kids away? Shouldn’t the school these children attend be aware of their non-vaccinated status, so they can keep them out of school when there is a known disease threat? ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/280 "2015-01-29T15:52:23Z")
> [@Miss-Informed](#): > > Forgive me if this has been covered, but I read the whole thing and I don’t remember seeing anyone address this. Would not the danger of “hiding in the herd” be that other people are not aware of the non-vaccinated status of these children, and so could not then take precautions to keep away from them? If, for example, there was an outbreak of measles or pertussis going around, and a person knew that someone’s kids were not vaccinated, wouldn’t it be useful information so they could keep their own kids away? Shouldn’t the school these children attend be aware of their non-vaccinated status, so they can keep them out of school when there is a known disease threat? Unless you’ve faked your child’s vaccination records, the school would be aware of a child’s unvaccinated status. I believe all fifty US states require vaccinations (though exactly which ones are required varies by state) for public kindergarten enrollment, all fifty states allow for exemption by medical waiver, 48 allow for exemption for religious reasons, and less than half allow for exemption for philosophical reasons. So you must submit proof of vaccinations or go on record (exactly how varies by state) as an exemption. A school “outing” a child’s vaccination status sounds like a potential HIPAA and privacy violation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=15)