# Disneyland Measles Outbreak **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529 "2015-01-21T23:14:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/41 "2015-01-23T14:06:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well yeah, if you lock the kid up in the house and don’t permit entry of any at-risk children or adults (like Grandma who’s on chemotherapy and vulnerable to a vaccine-preventable disease), then that would cut the risk considerably. Not real practical however.I suggest you check out what Dr. Bob has been saying about the current measles outbreak centered on Disneyland (which, after all, inspired this thread) and his statements minimizing the seriousness of the illness and “forgetting” to mention vaccination as important in controlling its spread. Then you can look into all the other dumb things Dr. Bob has said to encourage antivax attitudes, starting here: > > [insolence | ScienceBlogs](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/) > > Oh, and here’s a link to a PDF of an article explaining what’s wrong with Dr. Bob’s “alternative” vaccine schedule: > > [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full.pdf](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full.pdf) Not everyone has at-risk children or adults coming over, nor is it wildly “impractical” to deny them entry for their own safety. Your unvaccinated baby IS one of these at-risk people, regardless of whether you have elected not to vaccinate or it simply isn’t old enough to be protected by its stringently-followed CDC-recommended vaccination schedule. Taking unvaccinated babies to Disneyland seems quite foolish. Do you wish everyone there was vaccinated and it was therefore safe to do so? Perhaps. But we all know perfectly well that that is not the case. To pretend otherwise is irrational, and babies will have as much fun with a cardboard box as they will at Disney, so maybe the parents should be grown ups and skip this non-mandatory form of entertainment until their babies are older. I will check those links and see if I can muster up some outrage at Dr. Sears, but so far I am only mystified as to how his father is being described as somehow a credible well-informed source of valuable information upon whose respectable coattails “Dr. Bob” is riding, when both doctors seem to share a website extolling the exact same things. Many of these things seem quite stupid, like “attachment parenting,” ugh. Meanwhile, maybe you could highlight his most-egregious offenses? ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/42 "2015-01-23T14:17:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Oh, and here’s a link to a PDF of an article explaining what’s wrong with Dr. Bob’s “alternative” vaccine schedule: > > [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full.pdf](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full.pdf) No, that’s a link to the abstract. The actual paper is not accessible to non-subscribers. Like most people, I am not a pediatrician, and do not subscribe to the “Official Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics,” thus do not get to use that link to read it. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/43 "2015-01-23T14:52:25Z")
> [@](#): > > If the Beatles were still around, I’m sure they’d write a song. I don’t know if they’d call it “We All Live in Two Separate Submarines” or “Lucy in the Sky With Red Spots All Over.” Whatever it would be, the chorus would include “Everybody Calm the #$\*@%!& Down.” Since the members of the Beatles are of the generation that got measles, and had friends who died/lost their hearing/had brain damage from complications, I bet they wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/44 "2015-01-23T15:03:06Z")
Oy vey. Sears is a man in a position of enormous power. He was born into one of the most trusted families in America. His father is William Sears, widely respected author and a name – perhaps THE name in American pediatrics. It’s like being born a Bush. He could do so much good because people will listen to him simply by the fact that belongs to such a family. He is not your ordinary pediatrician. He could do so much good and he chooses to pander instead. He’s written a widely influential book on vaccines that is filled with lies. His communications with parents are filled with misinformation. And that is disgusting. Rather than explain to people why they are being irrational to fear vaccines, he panders to their fears. He tells them they are special-wescial people who don’t have to worry that their pwecious snowflake will have the same germs as everyone else. He plays to upper class narcissism in the dumbest way possible. His alternative is not based in science. It’s just made up. Literally. There are no scientific reasons for his schedule to exist. For example, he states that tetanus is not an infant disease. I have seen this lie repeated over and over and over and over again. Not only do babies catch tetanus, they can catch a form called [neonatal tetanus.](http://sites.kiwanis.org/Kiwanis/en/theELIMINATEproject/MNT.aspx) He states that diphtheria is virtually non-existent here. Of course this is because people vaccinate against it but hey why tell parents that? Same with hib. Hib is now rare. He points out hib is rare in the US WITHOUT POINTING OUT WHY. The only reason hib is rare is because we vaccinate against it now. Before vaccination programs were started in the late 1980’s roughly one in 200 babies got this illness with all kinds of nasty consequences. So he’s a doctor and he’s lying to parents. This is good pediatrics? This not worthy of fury and vitriol? Some more links: > **[Face-off with the bestselling vaccine guru](https://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine_book_sears/)** > > Dr. Sears' "Vaccine Book" is a nightmare for pediatricians like me. I decided to take my problems to the author > **[Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/)** > > Dr. Sears is a popular pediatrician who has written a dangerous and deceptive book on vaccination. > **[Dr Bob’s Alternative Vaccine Schedule? He made it up](https://pediatricinsider.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/dr-bobs-alternative-vaccine-schedule-he-made-it-up/)** > > The Pediatric Insider © 2013 Roy Benaroch, MD Thinking of buying a car? Talk to the people who know about cars. Look in those magazines that rate cars. Try, maybe, driving some different cars aroun… > **[Dr. Bob Sears deserves blame for declining vaccination rates](https://kevinmd.com/2014/06/dr-bob-sears-deserves-blame-declining-vaccination-rates.html)** > > I’m not saying Jenny McCarthy is blameless, but Dr. Bob Sears should know better. As a journalist at Forbes points out, in the middle of the latest epidemic of measles, people are calling his office to ask if they should get their kids vaccinated. And what does Dr. Boob do? > [@](#): > > [Worried About Measles? Don't Call Dr. Bob Sears](http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2014/03/23/worried-about-measles-dont-call-dr-bob-sears/) > > But just chill out. Measles will never go away – it’s always going to be a very small risk. If you aren’t comfortable with that, get the vaccine. If you don’t want the vaccine, accept the risk. Not a single fucking word in there to his own patients about the fact that getting the disease is far, far, far riskier than getting the shot. Nope. Of course not. Just the downplaying of one of the world’s most contagious diseases. He literally writes: > [@](#): > > “The possible complications of measles, mumps, or rubella are very similar to the side effect of the vaccines themselves.” > > [Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears | Science-Based Medicine](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/) This is, of course, a total lie. As the same source points out: > [@](#): > > One in 1000 cases of measles results in encephalitis, with a high rate of permanent neurological complications in those who survive. > Approximately five percent develop pneumonia. > The fatality rate is between one and three per 1000 cases. > Contrary to Dr. Sears’ statement, death is most commonly seen in infants with measles. > Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a rare complication of measles infection that occurs years after the illness in approximately 10 of every 100,000 cases. > > Here are the facts about complications of the measles vaccine: > > It causes fever and a mild rash in 5-15% of recipients. > 0.03% will have a febrile seizure – likely not a result of the vaccine itself, but simply a child’s individual predisposition to febrile seizures. > One in 10,000 children will have a more serious event following the vaccine, such as a change in alertness, a drop in blood pressure, or a severe allergic reaction. > Approximately 1 in 25,000 cases is associated with an asymptomatic drop in the blood platelet count, which quickly returns to normal without any consequences. In other words he lies to patients about the fact that the disease is enormously risky and the vaccine isn’t. This is not the first time he’s pulled this bullshit. A few years ago, he managed to spark an outbreak of measles all by himself. > [@](#): > > [http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/03/26/bob-sears-bald-faced-liar-devious-dissembler-or-both/](http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/03/26/bob-sears-bald-faced-liar-devious-dissembler-or-both/) > > I went on to write about how Sears’s downplaying of vaccine-preventable diseases was particularly ironic given what occurred in San Diego in 2008, when “a seven-year-old boy who was later revealed to be one of Sears’s patients returned from a family vacation in Switzerland with the measles.” Eventually, 11 other children were infected and dozens more were quarantined (some for up to three weeks); it ended up being the largest outbreak in California in almost two decades and cost well over $100,000 to contain. So a family followed his advice. What happened? Their kid came down with measles and the kid brought it back to the United States for all of us to cope with. If he’d had the guts to tell the parents to get the vaccine, none of that would have happened. In short he’s a public health menace with a massive following. His book has sold over 100,000 copies. He gets dozens of comments on anything he writers. That may not be personally annoying to some people. I mean I have my shots and so do all my kids and family members. But hey if you’ve got a newborn or cancer, or even someone who feels there are better uses for 100k that cleaning up after morons and their idiot leader, well you might feel slightly differently about a ped who openly tells his patients to avoid basic health precautions. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/45 "2015-01-23T15:03:44Z")
Your first link (Jackmanjii) is someone’s opinions about the same “Dr. Bob” Facebook post. I’m not saying these opinions are without merit, but his interpretations seem based on opinions he held before the Facebook post, not new evidence from it. For instance, he keeps harping on this recurring “dog whistle” to anti-vaxxers in the piece, wherein we are to believe this means he is not-so-secretly one of “them.” I don’t disagree that these statements are meant as some sort of anti-vax signal, but he repeatedly states that he gives and recommends vaccinations. To extend the dog whistle metaphor, why would I use a silent whistle to communicate with my dog? Is it because I am in cahoots with my dog and together we have developed a coded communication that we use to plot against our enemies in plain sight? Or am I summoning my dog so I can make it do something I want? My dog can’t whistle back, so it’s obviously just a lure. Once he is close enough and I’ve tricked him into my car, we’re going to the vet for some shots. I have some friends with a one-year-old unvaccinated baby. They fear vaccination because a friend of theirs had a premature infant whose death seems possibly to have been caused by vaccinating. Let’s not debate whether this was truly the cause of death. The relevant part is that they THINK so, not whether it is true. They believe they have “researched” and that this is the right answer for them. Of course I think they should vaccinate, but I keep my opinion to myself. “Vaccinate your child you fools” is not going to convince them, so I pretend I don’t think it’s idiotic, as I bide my time. Now, perhaps I can steer them to Dr. Sears and get them to consider a delayed schedule. His dog whistle may be just the thing to get them to vaccinate. A delayed vaccination schedule is much better than none, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/46 "2015-01-23T15:11:48Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > No, that’s a link to the abstract. > The actual paper is not accessible to non-subscribers. Like most people, I am not a pediatrician, and do not subscribe to the “Official Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics,” thus do not get to use that link to read it. I don’t subscribe to it either, so I’m not sure why I get to see the PDF. Meantime, it is quite easy to find articles like [this](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/paul-offit-takes-on-robert-sears/) which discuss the same subject. > [@AnaMen](#): > > Not everyone has at-risk children or adults coming over, nor is it wildly “impractical” to deny them entry for their own safety I highly doubt that most of the parents who follow Sears’ “alternative vaccine schedule” have an infant who is never taken out of the house and who segregate the child from all other children/adults who might be exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases. You appear to believe in a fantasy-land even more improbable than Disneyland. > [@AnaMen](#): > > Meanwhile, maybe you could highlight his most-egregious offenses? If you can’t be bothered to check out the link provided (or any others readily available) maybe you could read posts in this thread, including the one citing Sears’ Facebook post in which he pooh-poohs concerns about measles, offering instead reassurances like hey, pneumonia caused by measles isn’t so bad, 'cause we can treat that. Never mind that about 1/4 of kids affected by the current outbreak have wound up hospitalized. Dr. Bob would probably retort that hey, no biggie, whatever they’ve got we can treat! And never mind the likelihood that Dr. Bob’s views encouraging parents to follow a subpar vaccine schedule (or not to vaccinate at all, since after all, pathogens were here first and are part of the natural order of things\*) will lead to larger and larger outbreaks, permanent disabilities and deaths. \*yes, he really did make such a statement. > [@Dr. Bob](#): > > The way I see it, the diseases were here first. They are ubiquitous to our world. Whether created by God or by evolution, they are here. They are the status quo. See, it’s not nice to fool Mother Nature. :rolleyes: > **["Dr. Bob" Sears: Perfecting the art of the antivaccine dog whistle |...](https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/23/dr-bob-sears-perfecting-the-art-of-the-antivaccine-dog-whistle)** > > Oh, no, here we go again. > In fact, before I get started, I feel obligated to show this clip, saying, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in again: ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/47 "2015-01-23T15:13:44Z")
His schedule is bullshit based on lies. It’s that simple. A lot of parental concerns on vaccines are not based in facts and can actually put their child at risk. For example, delaying vaccines is not a safer choice. In fact it can be actually be riskier: > [@](#): > > [New Evidence of Risk from Delaying Vaccines - Shot of Prevention](http://shotofprevention.com/2013/10/15/new-evidence-of-risk-from-delaying-vaccines/) > > A recent study, published online in JAMA Pediatrics yesterday, found that the risk of fever and seizure after receipt of measles containing vaccines significantly increased in 16-23 month old children, as compared to 12-16 month old children. Not only does this research suggest that delaying vaccination is not necessarily a safer choice, it also suggests that a more robust immune response in older children, versus younger children, may result in a higher risk of fever and a lower threshold for seizure. Parents deserve to be treated like mature adults capable of understanding science. Dr. Bob doesn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/48 "2015-01-23T15:24:14Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Oy vey. Sears is a man in a position of enormous power. He was born into one of the most trusted families in America. His father is William Sears, widely respected author and a name – perhaps THE name in American pediatrics. It’s like being born a Bush. He could do so much good because people will listen to him simply by the fact that belongs to such a family. He is not your ordinary pediatrician. First off, I beg to differ with regard to the senior Sears. Sure, his website proudly proclaims his “trusted” status right at the top, but he spouts plenty of quackery and it’s hardly uncontroversial. Didn’t he get in trouble for hawking some dumb vitamin supplements as the “next best thing to fruits and veg” or something? He also does not appear to make any attempt to separate himself from Junior’s spoutings and they promote themselves together. Regardless, we cannot help who our parents are, so dinging him for people listening to him as a result of family connection is unfair. > [@](#): > > He could do so much good and he chooses to pander instead. He’s written a widely influential book on vaccines that is filled with lies. His communications with parents are filled with misinformation. And that is disgusting. Rather than explain to people why they are being irrational to fear vaccines, he panders to their fears. He tells them they are special-wescial people who don’t have to worry that their pwecious snowflake will have the same germs as everyone else. He plays to upper class narcissism in the dumbest way possible. > > His alternative is not based in science. It’s just made up. Literally. There are no scientific reasons for his schedule to exist. For example, he states that tetanus is not an infant disease. I have seen this lie repeated over and over and over and over again. Not only do babies catch tetanus, they can catch a form called [neonatal tetanus.](http://sites.kiwanis.org/Kiwanis/en/theELIMINATEproject/MNT.aspx) He states that diphtheria is virtually non-existent here. Of course this is because people vaccinate against it but hey why tell parents that? Same with hib. Hib is now rare. He points out hib is rare in the US WITHOUT POINTING OUT WHY. The only reason hib is rare is because we vaccinate against it now. Before vaccination programs were started in the late 1980’s roughly one in 200 babies got this illness with all kinds of nasty consequences. > > So he’s a doctor and he’s lying to parents. This is good pediatrics? This not worthy of fury and vitriol? How do you know what his actual beliefs are? You keep talking about him “lying” and “pandering,” but I have yet to see any reason to believe that he is not SINCERE. He could be dead wrong without being a liar. He could be completely incorrect, but it isn’t “pandering” unless it is with nefarious purpose. Why are you so sure he does not believe what he says? > [@](#): > > … > As a journalist at Forbes points out, in the middle of the latest epidemic of measles, people are calling his office to ask if they should get their kids vaccinated. And what does Dr. Boob do? Rush, is that you? When someone feels that it’s helpful to throw in a Moochelle Obama-type playground insult, it really discredits whatever else they’ve been trying to say. Changing Bob to Boob is not even slightly clever. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/49 "2015-01-23T15:33:49Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > First off, I beg to differ with regard to the senior Sears. Sure, his website proudly proclaims his “trusted” status right at the top, but he spouts plenty of quackery and it’s hardly uncontroversial. Didn’t he get in trouble for hawking some dumb vitamin supplements as the “next best thing to fruits and veg” or something? > He also does not appear to make any attempt to separate himself from Junior’s spoutings and they promote themselves together. > Regardless, we cannot help who our parents are, so dinging him for people listening to him as a result of family connection is unfair. > How do you know what his actual beliefs are? You keep talking about him “lying” and “pandering,” but I have yet to see any reason to believe that he is not SINCERE. He could be dead wrong without being a liar. He could be completely incorrect, but it isn’t “pandering” unless it is with nefarious purpose. Why are you so sure he does not believe what he says? > > Rush, is that you? > When someone feels that it’s helpful to throw in a Moochelle Obama-type playground insult, it really discredits whatever else they’ve been trying to say. Changing Bob to Boob is not even slightly clever. You can’t possibly think this is a serious rebuke to what I wrote. Seriously. Are you trolling or just dumb? Are you perhaps drunk? His father is a world famous ped. Dr. Sears is trading on his father’s name to sell a book filled with lies. So lies are okay as long as you are a sincere liar? WTF? I don’t give a shit how he feels about what he says. He’s lying to parents and putting kids in danger. That’s not acceptable. We had to spend over a hundred thousand dollars in public funds because the moron told some parents to avoid the MMR vaccine. He should have been barred from practicing pediatrics on that basis alone. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/50 "2015-01-23T15:46:14Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > His schedule is bullshit based on lies. It’s that simple. > > A lot of parental concerns on vaccines are not based in facts and can actually put their child at risk. For example, delaying vaccines is not a safer choice. In fact it can be actually be riskier: > > Parents deserve to be treated like mature adults capable of understanding science. Dr. Bob doesn’t do that. Delaying vaccinations may not be a “safer choice” than getting vaccinated on schedule, but do you really believe that it’s not a safer choice than not getting vaccinated at all? You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. No way no how are you EVER going to reason all non-vaxxers into getting on board with the CDC’s schedule. Having children certainly does not convert ordinary human dopes into “mature adults capable of understanding science.” Yes, many parents ARE mature adults and are capable of understanding science. But there are also many people who just aren’t. You can’t wish them away or educate them with studies. There is a distribution of intelligence and susceptibility to reason and there are plenty of people on both ends. You refer to “rational” people having no choice but to “beg” others to vaccinate. Nope. Rational people choose approaches that work. Begging is not very effective, so why bother? Calling people who disagree idiots is also not effective, and likely will just get them digging their heels in more. You aren’t winning hearts and minds with these techniques. Presenting scientific evidence probably works on you, so you may consider it a good strategy. Many people however do not value reason/rationality as highly, so it’s not going to work on them the same way. Look to companies successfully marketing to this sector for effective strategies. People are frequently led by the nose to make dumb decisions counter to their own interests. Figuring out effective strategies to change this particular behavior ought to be a piece of cake if ALL the “smart people” are on the same side. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/51 "2015-01-23T15:53:09Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You can’t possibly think this is a serious rebuke to what I wrote. Seriously. Are you trolling or just dumb? Are you perhaps drunk? > > His father is a world famous ped. Dr. Sears is trading on his father’s name to sell a book filled with lies. So lies are okay as long as you are a sincere liar? WTF? I don’t give a shit how he feels about what he says. He’s lying to parents and putting kids in danger. That’s not acceptable. We had to spend over a hundred thousand dollars in public funds because the moron told some parents to avoid the MMR vaccine. He should have been barred from practicing pediatrics on that basis alone. Yes, anyone that doesn’t gobble up your opinions is clearly lying, a moron, or intoxicated. No need to provide reasons when personal attacks will do! Yes, his father is “famous.” So what? Lies are _intentional_ untruths. If you think someone is wrong, “liar” is not the correct word to describe them. He comes off as having considered both sides of these issues, whereas you sound more like you skipped a rabies booster. I wonder why some people are listening to him… ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/52 "2015-01-23T16:02:55Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Delaying vaccinations may not be a “safer choice” than getting vaccinated on schedule, but do you really believe that it’s not a safer choice than not getting vaccinated at all? Why are you putting quotation marks around safer choice? This is not in dispute. It is not safer to delay vaccines. All you do is increase the very risks you’re trying to prevent. FYI, the number of parents who refuse vaccination for non-medical reasons is extremely tiny. Attempting to reason with them is not usually successful. Lying to them about vaccine risks and putting up a bullshit schedule based on lies hurts others who may believe such lies and avoid vaccines as a result. > [@](#): > > You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. No way no how are you EVER going to reason all non-vaxxers into getting on board with the CDC’s schedule. You don’t get there by lying to them. That’s what Dr. Sears does. I have no idea why this is supposed to be acceptable. > [@](#): > > Having children certainly does not convert ordinary human dopes into “mature adults capable of understanding science.” Yes, many parents ARE mature adults and are capable of understanding science. But there are also many people who just aren’t. You can’t wish them away or educate them with studies. There is a distribution of intelligence and susceptibility to reason and there are plenty of people on both ends. Lying to them does nothing either. That is what Dr. Sears does and that is why he deserves to be help in contempt. > [@](#): > > You refer to “rational” people having no choice but to “beg” others to vaccinate. Nope. Rational people choose approaches that work. Begging is not very effective, so why bother? Calling people who disagree idiots is also not effective, and likely will just get them digging their heels in more. You aren’t winning hearts and minds with these techniques. They are idiots. A decent doctor would tell them truth. Sears refuses. And in the process he fucks with public health. How is that helping? > [@](#): > > Presenting scientific evidence probably works on you, so you may consider it a good strategy. Many people however do not value reason/rationality as highly, so it’s not going to work on them the same way. > > Look to companies successfully marketing to this sector for effective strategies. People are frequently led by the nose to make dumb decisions counter to their own interests. Figuring out effective strategies to change this particular behavior ought to be a piece of cake if ALL the “smart people” are on the same side. Again, Dr. Sears is not promoting an effective strategy by lying to people. The best way to deal with anti-vaxers, IMO, is to make it hard to be one. You refuse vaccination? Fine. You can’t attend the public schools. You can’t be a nurse. You will need to stay home in the event of an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease. When you allow people to avoid vaccines [without consequences](http://www.medicaldaily.com/nyc-schools-are-now-allowed-ban-unvaccinated-kids-rules-federal-judge-289614), you will get vaccine-prevent diseases. Dr. Sears’s strategy of simply patting people on the head and lying to them has only brought disease to his community and put people at needless risk. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/53 "2015-01-23T16:03:17Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Delaying vaccinations may not be a “safer choice” than getting vaccinated on schedule, but do you really believe that it’s not a safer choice than not getting vaccinated at all? > > You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Contrast Dr. Bob’s approach with that of our very own **DSeid**. He’s a pediatrician who has described advocating the current evidence-based immunization schedule in interactions with fearful/misinformed parents. If they are unwilling, he will work with them to get the kids protected at least partially, but hopes to eventually convince the naysayers to get on board with full protection. Unlike Sears, he does not promote antivax tropes and minimize the effects of these diseases. > [@](#): > > Calling people who disagree idiots is also not effective, and likely will just get them digging their heels in more. You aren’t winning hearts and minds with these techniques. You are addressing a poster who wrote a well-received book aimed at parents (and who’s a mom herself) which certainly does _not_ address them as “idiots”, but makes well-reasoned factual arguments. I find it disingenuous of you to pretend that comments directed towards hard-core antivaxers and their facilitators (like Dr. Bob), in the Pit (of all places) are counterproductive to winning over fence-sitters. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/54 "2015-01-23T16:09:52Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Yes, anyone that doesn’t gobble up your opinions is clearly lying, a moron, or intoxicated. No need to provide reasons when personal attacks will do! > > Yes, his father is “famous.” So what? > Lies are _intentional_ untruths. If you think someone is wrong, “liar” is not the correct word to describe them. > He comes off as having considered both sides of these issues, whereas you sound more like you skipped a rabies booster. I wonder why some people are listening to him… The existence of neo-natal tetanus is not my opinion, moron. The fact that vaccines are the reason we don’t have hib or diphtheria here anymore is not my opinion, moron. The fact that the MMR vaccine is far less risky than a case of measles is not my opinion, moron. Dr. Sears is a pediatrician who is trading on his famous father’s name and deliberately lying to his patients. People are listening to him because they, like you, are morons. On some level I wouldn’t give a shit if people were morons and just morons in their own time and their own space but when it gets to the point where their moron-ness is making other people sick . . . people who aren’t in fact morons tend to find this objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/55 "2015-01-23T16:22:57Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Why are you putting quotation marks around safer choice? This is not in dispute. It is not safer to delay vaccines. All you do is increase the very risks you’re trying to prevent. FYI, the number of parents who refuse vaccination for non-medical reasons is extremely tiny. Attempting to reason with them is not usually successful. Lying to them about vaccine risks and putting up a bullshit schedule based on lies hurts others who may believe such lies and avoid vaccines as a result. They are not “scare quotes” (and neither are those), just regular quotation marks, since I am using the same phrase you used. Pretend they aren’t there if they bother you so. I notice you do not actually answer my question, which was whether you think the delayed schedule is better than no vaccinations at all. > [@](#): > > You don’t get there by lying to them. That’s what Dr. Sears does. I have no idea why this is supposed to be acceptable. You aren’t getting there. Period. Lies, truths, whatever tactics you deploy… it will never happen. > [@](#): > > Lying to them does nothing either. That is what Dr. Sears does and that is why he deserves to be help in contempt. Maybe he does, but nothing you’ve said so far backs this up. > [@](#): > > They are idiots. A decent doctor would tell them truth. Sears refuses. And in the process he fucks with public health. How is that helping? Maybe they are idiots, so what? They should just stop existing? There have always been idiots, and there will always be idiots. Why not use effective strategies to get them to vaccinate instead of insulting them? Look at how cigarette commercials are not allowed in the US. Smoking cigarettes is not a rational choice, but people were apparently too easily swayed into doing it anyway. Here is a strategy they did not employ: “Smoke cigarettes or you’re an idiot.” Why? Because it wouldn’t work. > [@](#): > > Again, Dr. Sears is not promoting an effective strategy by lying to people. The best way to deal with anti-vaxers, IMO, is to make it hard to be one. You refuse vaccination? Fine. You can’t attend the public schools. You can’t be a nurse. You will need to stay home in the event of an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease. > > When you allow people to avoid vaccines [without consequences](http://www.medicaldaily.com/nyc-schools-are-now-allowed-ban-unvaccinated-kids-rules-federal-judge-289614), you will get vaccine-prevent diseases. Dr. Sears’s strategy of simply patting people on the head and lying to them has only brought disease to his community and put people at needless risk. Well you say he’s an anti-vaxxer and has caused people to get measles, die, spend public money, etc. Doesn’t that mean whatever he’s doing IS working? In this case, “working” means convincing people NOT to vaccinate, since you say that’s his intention. So which is it? You are simultaneously claiming his strategy is ineffective while complaining about exactly how well it’s working! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/56 "2015-01-23T16:25:45Z")
Look measles is not something to [fuck around with.](http://www.today.com/health/measles-outbreak-6-reasons-why-doctors-are-so-afraid-2D80441162) It’s extremely contagious. It can be spread easily before you have any symptoms. Getting it means risking all kinds of unpleasant side effects. For a doctor – all ALL people – to downplay these facts is not acceptable. Sears is betraying the trust people put in him and helping to spread disease. He’s not considering both sides of the issue. He lying to people and putting kids at risk. Go read his follower’s crazy assed comments. If that’s not enough to make you run off and get shots ASAP I’m not sure what is. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/57 "2015-01-23T16:30:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Contrast Dr. Bob’s approach with that of our very own **DSeid**. He’s a pediatrician who has described advocating the current evidence-based immunization schedule in interactions with fearful/misinformed parents. If they are unwilling, he will work with them to get the kids protected at least partially, but hopes to eventually convince the naysayers to get on board with full protection. Unlike Sears, he does not promote antivax tropes and minimize the effects of these diseases.You are addressing a poster who wrote a well-received book aimed at parents (and who’s a mom herself) which certainly does _not_ address them as “idiots”, but makes well-reasoned factual arguments. > > I find it disingenuous of you to pretend that comments directed towards hard-core antivaxers and their facilitators (like Dr. Bob), in the Pit (of all places) are counterproductive to winning over fence-sitters. Dr. Sears says he also advocates the CDC schedule. He says he provides an alternate schedule for parents leery of giving so many vaccinations at once. I have indeed looked at your provided links, and I still see nothing compelling against his alternate schedule. If I give this schedule to a non-vaxxing friend and it leads them to vaccinate, I think that’s an improvement. I know perfectly well who I’m addressing, thank you. The individual has repeatedly railed right here against “idiots,” but I’m sure this is not included in the book. I also highly doubt that the book to which you refer has had as much influence on “fence-sitters” as Dr. Sears’ publications. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/58 "2015-01-23T16:36:07Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > They are not “scare quotes” (and neither are those), just regular quotation marks, since I am using the same phrase you used. Pretend they aren’t there if they bother you so. > I notice you do not actually answer my question, which was whether you think the delayed schedule is better than no vaccinations at all. I think a pediatrician has a responsibility not to lie to his patients. I have no idea why you think otherwise. > [@](#): > > You aren’t getting there. Period. Lies, truths, whatever tactics you deploy… it will never happen. > > Maybe he does, but nothing you’ve said so far backs this up. Are you this stupid in real life? A ped who tells parents babies don’t get tetanus isn’t lying to them? What the hell? > [@](#): > > Maybe they are idiots, so what? They should just stop existing? There have always been idiots, and there will always be idiots. Why not use effective strategies to get them to vaccinate instead of insulting them? What makes you think Bob Sears is all that effective? All he’s done is cost his community thousands of dollars in needless fees to clean up the mess he made and allowed parents to spew lies about public health measures on his Facebook page. Why makes you think he isn’t turning people who are fence sitters into anti-vaxxers? > [@](#): > > Look at how cigarette commercials are not allowed in the US. Smoking cigarettes is not a rational choice, but people were apparently too easily swayed into doing it anyway. Here is a strategy they did not employ: “Smoke cigarettes or you’re an idiot.” Why? Because it wouldn’t work. You haven’t seen any local anti-smoking commercials lately, have you? > [@](#): > > Well you say he’s an anti-vaxxer and has caused people to get measles, die, spend public money, etc. > Doesn’t that mean whatever he’s doing IS working? In this case, “working” means convincing people NOT to vaccinate, since you say that’s his intention. So which is it? You are simultaneously claiming his strategy is ineffective while complaining about exactly how well it’s working! Oy. It’s not what I say. It’s what he does. He has caused a measles outbreak. How can you deny this? What he’s doing is pandering to irrational fears and lying to people. The result are more cases of vaccine-preventable diseases and thousands of people with bad information about this subject. I’m sorry these simple points seem beyond your comprehension. Perhaps you should go back and read some of the links I posted here? Rather than posting gibberish posts filled with stupidity? That’d be good. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/59 "2015-01-23T16:38:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Look measles is not something to [fuck around with.](http://www.today.com/health/measles-outbreak-6-reasons-why-doctors-are-so-afraid-2D80441162) It’s extremely contagious. It can be spread easily before you have any symptoms. Getting it means risking all kinds of unpleasant side effects. For a doctor – all ALL people – to downplay these facts is not acceptable. Sears is betraying the trust people put in him and helping to spread disease. He’s not considering both sides of the issue. He lying to people and putting kids at risk. > > Go read his follower’s crazy assed comments. If that’s not enough to make you run off and get shots ASAP I’m not sure what is. I’m not some weird fan of the dude, nor do I doubt that he has a contingent of moronic followers. Based on the quotes from him YOU have provided though, he sounds a lot more like he IS considering both sides of the issue. Also, he has not called me any names, so that’s a big plus for him too. How can you be so sure he’s not dog-whistling these followers towards vaccinations they would not otherwise be getting? Do you really believe he’s convinced these more of these fans NOT to vaccinate – that is, they were going to, read his thoughts, and changed their minds – than the opposite? I wouldn’t personally assume either way. I’d like to see some evidence. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/60 "2015-01-23T16:40:46Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Dr. Sears says he also advocates the CDC schedule. He says he provides an alternate schedule for parents leery of giving so many vaccinations at once. I have indeed looked at your provided links, and I still see nothing compelling against his alternate schedule. If I give this schedule to a non-vaxxing friend and it leads them to vaccinate, I think that’s an improvement. > > I know perfectly well who I’m addressing, thank you. The individual has repeatedly railed right here against “idiots,” but I’m sure this is not included in the book. > I also highly doubt that the book to which you refer has had as much influence on “fence-sitters” as Dr. Sears’ publications. And if you lie to parents and imply that there is no need to give necessary vaccines such as the one for tetanus you are lying to parents and directly endangering babies. If you really want to help parent irrationally afraid of vaccines, you don’t lie to them. FYI, I most certainly have never sparked a fucking case of the measles that cost thousands of dollars in public funds to clean up. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=4)