# Disneyland Measles Outbreak **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529 "2015-01-21T23:14:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/81 "2015-01-23T19:10:43Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ok, so we both agree that it’s not Dr Sears’ responsibility to put up billboards of dead babies. Why do you not agree that it’s his responsibility to give accurate patient information? What he is doing is literally the equivalent of telling people, “Oh yeah, you should probably quit smoking, but if you don’t… we have interventions. If you get lung cancer we have chemo and radiation for that. If you get oral cancer we can cut out your face. If you develop emphysema we can put you on oxygen. Lots of people choose not to quit smoking, and they’re fine.” I do think he should give accurate information, but what I have read that he has written and said does not appear to be the string of lies that he is accused of telling. I make no claim of having extensively read his writings though. That’s why I asked what he has said that I’m supposed to be outraged by. There are a lot of links provided here to opinion blogs. That doesn’t make the opinions wrong, but I prefer to draw conclusions from the actual sources. Many open with banal errors, claiming Bob Sears is the youngest son in his family, which simply is not true (Wikipedia reports him as the second child of eight), so how accurate is the rest likely to be? Sometimes a blogger will interpret the context of a statement in a way that is not entirely supported by the primary source. I read his rebuttal to Paul Offit’s criticism and it seemed to be thoughtful and not the ragings of a nefarious anti-vaxxing loon hoping to convince people not to vaccinate. He says he is quoted out of context. Without reading Offit’s paper and Sears’ book, I can’t draw a proper conclusion. If a doctor tells people they ought to quit smoking and they say they aren’t going to, should he/she dismiss them from his practice? If they did so, I’d understand, but I’m glad they usually don’t and try to help them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/82 "2015-01-23T19:16:02Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > We’re not having a discussion. You are making inaccurate points and posters like myself are largely patiently trying to correct them. You don’t have to go medical school to read the links I pulled up and understand why Bob Sears is wrong on this issue. You think he’s not lying and essential harmless. That is your opinion and it is a stupid one. As this is the pit I am thankfully free to say so here. > > Here are the links again to point out the problems and lies with Dr. Bob. > > [http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine\_book\_sears/](http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine_book_sears/) > [http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...r-of-dr-sears/](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...r-of-dr-sears/) > [https://pediatricinsider.wordpress.c](https://pediatricinsider.wordpress.c)…he-made-it-up/ > [http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/06/...ion-rates.html](http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/06/...ion-rates.html) Oooh, Salon, a respected journal! And some blogs! I never claimed he was harmless. You aren’t “patiently” trying to do anything. You are calling me an idiot and a moron. Patient people refrain from that type of thing. I don’t care what you are “free” to do and have not requested that anyone stop you. Go ahead, exercise your right to behave poorly. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/83 "2015-01-23T19:20:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I didn’t need a study to tell me this was likely. Putting out a pro-vaccine ad is kind of like Bill Nye debating the creationist, or like what would happen if the U.S. government suddenly took out ads denying the 9/11 truther conspriacy; the effort gives credence to the lies. > > As much as I dislike the government getting into people’s business, this is an area of externality and interference is needed; it should be against the law to not vaccinate your kids. If criminal charges are overkill, then at the least parents must be extremely inconvenienced - a total ban from public schooling, without the moral/religious exceptions that are so easy to get, is a good place to start. Although I would not support legislation forcing vaccination, as I strongly believe in personal freedom, your approach leaves a lot of vulnerable kids at the mercy of their parents’ bad decisions, so I don’t like it either. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/84 "2015-01-23T19:25:35Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Oooh, Salon, a respected journal! And some blogs! > I never claimed he was harmless. > You aren’t “patiently” trying to do anything. You are calling me an idiot and a moron. Patient people refrain from that type of thing. > I don’t care what you are “free” to do and have not requested that anyone stop you. Go ahead, exercise your right to behave poorly. The Salon article was written by a ped. Respected Insolence is written by a doctor. Here’s another [link](http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/06/dr-bob-sears-deserves-blame-declining-vaccination-rates.html) by an Ob. Just how many people with medical degrees have to point out how badly he’s behaving for you to agree? I am calling you an idiot and a moron because you are acting like one. Dr. Sears is giving solace to stupid people who are doing stupid things that are not only stupid but contagious as well. He’s telling people that not only is okay not to vaccinate but it can even be smart to do so. While I am sure that a handful of people may have been persuaded to get some vaccines because of his lies, he’s probably convinced quite a number that vaccination is a bad choice. I’m horrified you feel the need to side with him or defend the guy. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/85 "2015-01-23T19:46:34Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The Salon article was written by a ped. Respected Insolence is written by a doctor. Here’s another [link](http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/06/dr-bob-sears-deserves-blame-declining-vaccination-rates.html) by an Ob. Just how many people with medical degrees have to point out how badly he’s behaving for you to agree? I am calling you an idiot and a moron because you are acting like one. Dr. Sears is giving solace to stupid people who are doing stupid things that are not only stupid but contagious as well. He’s telling people that not only is okay not to vaccinate but it can even be smart to do so. While I am sure that a handful of people may have been persuaded to get some vaccines because of his lies, he’s probably convinced quite a number that vaccination is a bad choice. > > I’m horrified you feel the need to side with him or defend the guy. Dr. Sears is a doctor. His father and brother are also doctors. They seem to all agree that his approach is fine, as it is featured on their website. So should I blindly follow the opinions of medical degree-holders or not? You’re calling me an idiot and a moron because you are an ill-mannered bully who must resort to personal attacks instead of logic and reason. But this is the Pit, so that’s perfectly allowed of course, as it should be. Neither of us knows whether he has increased or decreased the number of vaccinations. The fact that you refuse to even consider that this is not as black-and-white as you say just shows that your mind is shut. I know you aren’t an actual scientist or doctor, but it’s a shame you are embracing such an unscientific way of thinking while trumpeting the opposite. You ought at least to have decent reading comprehension, but sadly it’s tabloid journalism at its finest with you. You take opinions you don’t like and try to cram them into my mouth, pretending I’ve claimed things I haven’t. And if I’m such a stupid idiotic moron, why are you “horrified” by anything I’ve said? You know perfectly well he has supporters, you keep saying so. You also claim they are stupid idiotic morons. What, then, has you “horrified” exactly? Isn’t this exactly as you’d expect? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/86 "2015-01-23T20:05:05Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Dr. Sears is a doctor. His father and brother are also doctors. They seem to all agree that his approach is fine, as it is featured on their website. > So should I blindly follow the opinions of medical degree-holders or not? > > You’re calling me an idiot and a moron because you are an ill-mannered bully who must resort to personal attacks instead of logic and reason. But this is the Pit, so that’s perfectly allowed of course, as it should be. > > Neither of us knows whether he has increased or decreased the number of vaccinations. The fact that you refuse to even consider that this is not as black-and-white as you say just shows that your mind is shut. I know you aren’t an actual scientist or doctor, but it’s a shame you are embracing such an unscientific way of thinking while trumpeting the opposite. > You ought at least to have decent reading comprehension, but sadly it’s tabloid journalism at its finest with you. You take opinions you don’t like and try to cram them into my mouth, pretending I’ve claimed things I haven’t. > And if I’m such a stupid idiotic moron, why are you “horrified” by anything I’ve said? > You know perfectly well he has supporters, you keep saying so. You also claim they are stupid idiotic morons. What, then, has you “horrified” exactly? Isn’t this exactly as you’d expect? Myself and others in this thread have spent quite a lot of time trying to patiently point out to you where Dr. Sears is wrong and why he is dangerous. I’m very, very, very sorry you can’t seem to understand such facts or why he is so dangerous. You are sitting there apparently quite prepared to tell someone you know who might be hesitant to vaccinate not to go to a good source but to head straight to a liar who will pat them on the head and tell the comforting bullshit. Yeah that’s pretty horrifying. This is issue is pretty black and white. That’s not a question of my mind being shut. Most people should get vaccinated. If you can’t the best thing to do is tell others to get vaccinated. It is not to suggest that neo-natal tetanus does not exist or to pretend that delaying vaccines will reduce the risk of side effects when it won’t. It certainly isn’t to write this sort of gibberish as Dr. Bob did on Facebook wall: > [@](#): > > Dr. Bob Sears > > November 6, 2014 > · > DR. BOB’S DAILY: > > IF YOU DIDN’T HATE PAUL OFFIT BEFORE . . . > I typically just ignore my critics. None of them are worth my time or emotional energy, and very few of them have anything scientifically worthwhile to say. > But I’m going to give a shout out to my colleague, Dr. Paul Offit, for his brilliant discussion on How to Handle Questions About Vaccine Safety. Every answer he gives is spot on and completely accurate in every way. I don’t know what I’ve been thinking, questioning vaccine safety. His answers are so complete, so truthful, and so without holes that any doctor who is blessed enough to read it will be thoroughly armed with irrefutable answers, and any parent who questions vaccine safety will be instantly converted to the truth. > > I wonder just how many doctors believe the arguments he puts forth in his answers. Part of me hopes that most doctors out there aren’t that stupid. That it’s just a select few who are hard-core party-liners that have lied to themselves for so long that they actually believe this stuff. A few of his laughable highlights include: > > “You don’t have to trust pharmaceutical companies.” Trust the side-effect reporting system. > > Every year, 18,000 young children somehow, magically, caught hepatitis B every year before the vaccine came into use. > > And don’t worry about all the side effects on the package insert - they didn’t really happen (ok, that was MY paraphrase) > > And the real doozy: $2.8 billion in compensation to vaccine-injured people isn’t actually for those unfortunate enough to have been injured. It’s all just for lawyers to make money. No one has to prove their case in court, so these awards mean nothing. > > Now we can all rest easy and completely vaccinate all of our children, on schedule, without a care in the world. Thanks Dr. Offit for helping us see the light! > Dr. Bob This is a childish temper tantrum and nothing else. FYI, Dr. Offit is presently the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology as well as Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania, Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the present Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. Dr. Offit has published over 130 papers in medical and scientific journals on issues such the immune responses and vaccine safety. He is also the author or co-author of several books on vaccines, vaccination. And this is how Sears responds to him . . . ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/87 "2015-01-23T20:43:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I didn’t need a study to tell me this was likely. Putting out a pro-vaccine ad is kind of like Bill Nye debating the creationist, or like what would happen if the U.S. government suddenly took out ads denying the 9/11 truther conspriacy; the effort gives credence to the lies. > > As much as I dislike the government getting into people’s business, this is an area of externality and interference is needed; it should be against the law to not vaccinate your kids. If criminal charges are overkill, then at the least parents must be extremely inconvenienced - a total ban from public schooling, without the moral/religious exceptions that are so easy to get, is a good place to start. NYC schools can ban unvaccinated kids under certain circumstances. I think this is fair: > [@](#): > > [NYC Schools Are Now Allowed To Ban Unvaccinated Kids, Rules Federal Judge](http://www.medicaldaily.com/nyc-schools-are-now-allowed-ban-unvaccinated-kids-rules-federal-judge-289614) > > A federal judge has ruled New York City schools now have the right to ban unvaccinated kids from attending classes when another student has a disease that could be otherwise preventable by vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/88 "2015-01-23T20:44:48Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Myself and others in this thread have spent quite a lot of time trying to patiently point out to you where Dr. Sears is wrong and why he is dangerous. I’m very, very, very sorry you can’t seem to understand such facts or why he is so dangerous. You are sitting there apparently quite prepared to tell someone you know who might be hesitant to vaccinate not to go to a good source but to head straight to a liar who will pat them on the head and tell the comforting bullshit. Yeah that’s pretty horrifying. > > This is issue is pretty black and white. That’s not a question of my mind being shut. Most people should get vaccinated. If you can’t the best thing to do is tell others to get vaccinated. It is not to suggest that neo-natal tetanus does not exist or to pretend that delaying vaccines will reduce the risk of side effects when it won’t. > > It certainly isn’t to write this sort of gibberish as Dr. Bob did on Facebook wall: > > This is a childish temper tantrum and nothing else. FYI, Dr. Offit is presently the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology as well as Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania, Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the present Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. Dr. Offit has published over 130 papers in medical and scientific journals on issues such the immune responses and vaccine safety. He is also the author or co-author of several books on vaccines, vaccination. And this is how Sears responds to him . . . You have done no such thing. You can’t be bothered to answer simple questions and instead resort to repeated childish insults and personal attacks. You have concocted an idea in your head that I’m a big fan of Dr. Bob Sears. In reality, while it turns out I’d heard of him before today – in the context of his fathers’ idiotic attachment parenting nonsense and in the context of his delayed vaccination schedule – I never felt the need to find out more about him. That’s why I asked you whether there was something beyond the Facebook posts you originally put up. It simply did not appear to contain the despicable lies that had you frothing so rabidly at the mouth. Now I’ve read these links and briefly perused his site. There are a lot of people bashing and accusing him, to be sure. A lot of it really does seem to be cherry-picking and twisting out of context things he has said or written. He sure talks about trying to get people to vaccinate a lot for an anti-vaxxer. It could all be part of an evil scheme, but I don’t know enough about what claims he has made to have an opinion about that. Instead of having a reasonable discussion, you just rant and insult. Where he acknowledges both pro-vaxxers and anti-vaxxers, you basically dismiss anti-vaxxers as non-people. I believe strongly that there are no non-people and that people who do not share my opinions still count and matter. You don’t seem capable of understanding why or that some people actually don’t care about your facts. I could direct people to credible sources in information, but they wouldn’t even understand them. If I can convince them to delay-vaccinate rather than not vaccinate, that is good enough. It’s the best I can do and you’re doing no better. You’re just being rude and obnoxious, poor long-suffering pseudoscientist. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/89 "2015-01-23T20:53:58Z")
I’m not familiar with the sociological underpinnings of modern day anti-vaxxers. Did it start in America and travel to Europe, like ID, or did it arise in both places at about the same time? I’d like to believe America, adjusted for educational opportunities, has the greatest kooks in the world. But Europeans have a General Ripper attitude when it comes to their precious bodily fluids, so maybe they got us beat on this one. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/90 "2015-01-23T21:04:01Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > You have done no such thing. You can’t be bothered to answer simple questions and instead resort to repeated childish insults and personal attacks. > You have concocted an idea in your head that I’m a big fan of Dr. Bob Sears. In reality, while it turns out I’d heard of him before today – in the context of his fathers’ idiotic attachment parenting nonsense and in the context of his delayed vaccination schedule – I never felt the need to find out more about him. > That’s why I asked you whether there was something beyond the Facebook posts you originally put up. It simply did not appear to contain the despicable lies that had you frothing so rabidly at the mouth. > Now I’ve read these links and briefly perused his site. There are a lot of people bashing and accusing him, to be sure. A lot of it really does seem to be cherry-picking and twisting out of context things he has said or written. He sure talks about trying to get people to vaccinate a lot for an anti-vaxxer. It could all be part of an evil scheme, but I don’t know enough about what claims he has made to have an opinion about that. > > Instead of having a reasonable discussion, you just rant and insult. Where he acknowledges both pro-vaxxers and anti-vaxxers, you basically dismiss anti-vaxxers as non-people. > I believe strongly that there are no non-people and that people who do not share my opinions still count and matter. > You don’t seem capable of understanding why or that some people actually don’t care about your facts. I could direct people to credible sources in information, but they wouldn’t even understand them. If I can convince them to delay-vaccinate rather than not vaccinate, that is good enough. It’s the best I can do and you’re doing no better. You’re just being rude and obnoxious, poor long-suffering pseudoscientist. If this is all you’ve gotten from my posts the problem is your fault not mine. Dr. Bob deliberately misleads people on the subject of vaccines. He lies about them and gives a cover to those who avoid them or make the dumb choice to delay based on bad science. One of his patients refused vaccines and caused an outbreak of measles that spread to nearly a dozen other people. If you can’t seem to understand this, it is not for lack of information from me. He panders and he lies and people like you have no problem with this. And then we get unnecessary cases of measles and thousands of dollars spent to clean it up and outbreaks of completely preventable diseases that hurt people. Worse, when we dare get upset at this kind of behavior _we_ are the ones accused of behaving like barbarians. This is not an opinion, you sanctimonious dipshit. This is public health. When you deliberately shit in the water supply you have no right to demand a “discussion” about why shitting in the water supply is an acceptable thing, let alone be granted a place at the table to expand on the possible virtues of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/91 "2015-01-23T21:23:28Z")
There’s another crazy that advises parents to “cure the autism” with bleach. By feeding it to their kids.:eek: Kills the parasites, dontchaknow.:rolleyes::eek: Healing the Symptoms Known as Autism . ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/92 "2015-01-23T21:40:31Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > If this is all you’ve gotten from my posts the problem is your fault not mine. Dr. Bob deliberately misleads people on the subject of vaccines. He lies about them and gives a cover to those who avoid them or make the dumb choice to delay based on bad science. One of his patients refused vaccines and caused an outbreak of measles that spread to nearly a dozen other people. If you can’t seem to understand this, it is not for lack of information from me. > > He panders and he lies and people like you have no problem with this. And then we get unnecessary cases of measles and thousands of dollars spent to clean it up and outbreaks of completely preventable diseases that hurt people. Worse, when we dare get upset at this kind of behavior _we_ are the ones accused of behaving like barbarians. > > This is not an opinion, you sanctimonious dipshit. This is public health. When you deliberately shit in the water supply you have no right to demand a “discussion” about why shitting in the water supply is an acceptable thing, let alone be granted a place at the table to expand on the possible virtues of doing so. You keep repeating the same unproven refrain. If “Dr. Bob” is deliberately misleading people, pandering, and lying, rather than mistaken, misinformed, or simply wrong, you should have some evidence to back that up. Instead you insist it doesn’t matter which it is. If it doesn’t matter, why do you keep coming back to these accusations, which you apparently have no indication of? In post #65 you claim that “the moron [Sears] told some parents not to vaccinate,” which caused a measles outbreak. Now you’re backpedaling a bit and just saying his patient’s parents “refused” the vaccination. Is it his stupidity or bad intentions that were to blame? Did he actually tell them not to vaccinate or did they refuse and he did not somehow make them do it? Wasn’t the child in question seven years old, in which case had he received vaccinations according to the delayed schedule, rather than none at all, he would have been vaccinated by this time? Who are these “people like me” that are “shitting in the water supply”? Are you under the mistaken impression that I eschew vaccinations for myself and my wards? We all have _more_ than the required vaccinations. Are my people the ones that dare to have a discussion and ask a question instead of just lining up whenever the CDC orders us to? Meet me by the reservoir and bring your full bowels, people. I can’t wait to finally get our group organized now that I know they’re may be more of us! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/93 "2015-01-23T21:45:34Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m not familiar with the sociological underpinnings of modern day anti-vaxxers. Did it start in America and travel to Europe, like ID, or did it arise in both places at about the same time? I’d like to believe America, adjusted for educational opportunities, has the greatest kooks in the world. But Europeans have a General Ripper attitude when it comes to their precious bodily fluids, so maybe they got us beat on this one. The whole thing goes back to smallpox. Both places embraced the vaccine and both places had opposition to it. Modern day anti-vax movements have varied from country to country. Thomas Jefferson was a huge advocate for the vaccine: > **[Inoculation](https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/inoculation/)** Napoleon was in awe of Edward Jenner and went to great lengths to procure the smallpox vaccine. In the present day UK, much of the opposition to vaccines has stemmed from Andrew Wakefield’s stupid debacle. In the Netherlands, opposition to vaccines is based in some places on religious stupidity while the [French](http://www.vaccinestoday.eu/vaccines/why-france-has-not-yet-eliminated-measles/) have not done enough to vaccinate so they had a few thousand cases of measles alas in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/94 "2015-01-23T21:52:40Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > You keep repeating the same unproven refrain. If “Dr. Bob” is deliberately misleading people, pandering, and lying, rather than mistaken, misinformed, or simply wrong, you should have some evidence to back that up. > Did he actually tell them not to vaccinate or did they refuse and he did not somehow make them do it? He said vaccination is “a Choice” and mentioned potential side effects as a good reason to not vaccinate. Now yes,for a brief time, there were some allergy issues with a preservative used, but this was gone by 2001. And in any case, the risks by not getting the vaccine outweighed the risks by the allergy attack by a factor of a 1000 or more. Yes, some rare few kids have a medical condition where routine vaccinations are not advisable. But then, that’s not “a choice”. Your pediatrician will tell you what to do and what not to do for the child’s medical safety. Your right to ‘a choice’ stops when it impacts other people lives. So, getting your kids vaccinated is not “a choice”. You dont get to endanger other peoples kids because of your personal crazy. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/95 "2015-01-23T22:03:11Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > You keep repeating the same unproven refrain. If “Dr. Bob” is deliberately misleading people, pandering, and lying, rather than mistaken, misinformed, or simply wrong, you should have some evidence to back that up. Instead you insist it doesn’t matter which it is. If it doesn’t matter, why do you keep coming back to these accusations, which you apparently have no indication of? > In post #65 you claim that “the moron [Sears] told some parents not to vaccinate,” which caused a measles outbreak. Now you’re backpedaling a bit and just saying his patient’s parents “refused” the vaccination. > Is it his stupidity or bad intentions that were to blame? > Did he actually tell them not to vaccinate or did they refuse and he did not somehow make them do it? Wasn’t the child in question seven years old, in which case had he received vaccinations according to the delayed schedule, rather than none at all, he would have been vaccinated by this time? > Who are these “people like me” that are “shitting in the water supply”? Are you under the mistaken impression that I eschew vaccinations for myself and my wards? We all have _more_ than the required vaccinations. Are my people the ones that dare to have a discussion and ask a question instead of just lining up whenever the CDC orders us to? Meet me by the reservoir and bring your full bowels, people. I can’t wait to finally get our group organized now that I know they’re may be more of us! And you wonder why I think you’re an idiot? A patient of Dr. Sears did not vaccinate their special-wesical snowflake and went abroad where they brought back measles to to others. I am sorry these facts seem beyond your comprehension or why you think I am back peddling when I use various phrases to state that fact. [Here](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/) is an extremely detailed post about what is wrong with Dr. Bob’s views. If I don’t post the entire post it is because of copyright laws. Please read the fucking thing and come back with any other defense you feel important other than to argue that it somehow matters if his lying is deliberate or he’s just being lazy or whatever. [Here’s](http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine_book_sears/) another one. You are not asking questions. You are making stupid remarks, insulting me and defending a man who lies to parents. > [@](#): > > [http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine\_book\_sears/](http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine_book_sears/) > > The word “overloaded” is key, because Sears’ advice is based on avoiding ingredients used to keep vaccines safe and effective, especially aluminum, used in small quantities to help stimulate the antibody response and ensure immunity. Without it, many vaccines would be useless. It has received increased scrutiny only because anti-vaccine folks blamed it for causing autism after studies showed their first two biological scapegoats — the MMR vaccine and another preservative, thimerosal — do not. > > - > > hen I asked him about this, he sought to clarify a criticism by Paul Offit that accuses Sears of stating that vaccines cause chronic disease. “I discuss the MYTH (emphasis his) that vaccines are linked to ADHD and other chronic diseases.” But Sears doesn’t use the word “myth” in his book — and certainly not in capital letters — when discussing vaccines and chronic disease at all. Doing so would have helped put the issue to rest. Instead he muddles in the middle ground: “I haven’t found any solid research to support the connection [between vaccines and chronic disease]. > \* > > Sears sent me a list of 14 studies linking vaccines and chronic diseases. But a close examination shows he is on shaky ground. Eight of those 14 “studies” are case reports — where doctors describe what they see in a patient or group patients who, in these cases, may have had an untoward reaction to a vaccine. They are meant to raise awareness and questions and not to draw conclusions. One study was an opinion piece full of speculation. For the remaining studies that suggested links — between diabetes and immunizations, for instance — current studies have put these concerns to rest. > > As if all of these shortcomings weren’t enough, “The Vaccine Book” is peppered with misleading innuendo and factual errors. “In truth, tetanus is not an infant disease,” Sears writes. In fact, neonatal tetanus is one of the most serious forms of tetanus known to us. > \* > In his chapter on the Hepatitis B vaccine, Sears conducts sloppy arithmetic to punch holes in the reason we want babies vaccinated against this disease (best explained here). But perhaps the most chilling example of the way Sears misleads parents is his coy mention of children taken away from home after their parents refuse to immunize them. > > When I asked Sears about this, he began defensively. “Allow me to quote from page 218. ‘I’ve heard rumors that state child protective services take children away … I find that hard to believe.’ In my opinion, I am stating that this has not happened. That it is only rumor,” he wrote. This is a list of some of the problems with his stupid book. Please tell me why you continue to think it constitutes frothing at the mouth to point this out. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/96 "2015-01-23T22:05:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He said vaccination is “a Choice” and mentioned potential side effects as a good reason to not vaccinate. Now yes,for a brief time, there were some allergy issues with a preservative used, but this was gone by 2001. And in any case, the risks by not getting the vaccine outweighed the risks by the allergy attack by a factor of a 1000 or more. > > Yes, some rare few kids have a medical condition where routine vaccinations are not advisable. But then, that’s not “a choice”. Your pediatrician will tell you what to do and what not to do for the child’s medical safety. > > Your right to ‘a choice’ stops when it impacts other people lives. So, getting your kids vaccinated is not “a choice”. You dont get to endanger other peoples kids because of your personal crazy. Of course it is a Choice. When presented with a Choice, you can choose wrong. The fact that you’ve made a Mistake certainly does not mean you had no choice to begin with. If you could just point out where he actually says that potential side effects are “a good reason not to vaccinate,” that would be great. I’m not saying he never said it, I’m just asking to read or hear his words for myself, as it does not seem to mesh with the other things that I have read that he has written. I’m no fan of the guy. Like I said, I have barely heard of him, so I certainly don’t have him up on a pedestal or consider him beyond reproach, like some people might a certain Offit guy. And of course I, and all of you too, DO get to endanger others with our personal crazy. How can we possibly be stopped without restricting so many freedoms that it becomes an even less-funny joke than it already is? This is a problem with living in a society, but what else is there? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/97 "2015-01-23T22:10:02Z")
FYI, the people shitting in the water supply are anti-vaxxers who you have idiotically accused me of seeing as non-people. Their views are not an “opinion” as you so quaintly phrased it. The only thing that matters when it comes to them is either convincing them to stop or isolating them from harming others. As the first is not likely the second is probably more useful. It does not turn people into “non-people” when we refuse them the right to shit on public health measures. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/98 "2015-01-23T22:17:45Z")
That Offit guy? You mean the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology? The Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania? The Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the present Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia? The author of over 130 papers in medical and scientific journals on issues such the immune responses and vaccine safety? That guy? FYI, he’s a wonderful person – nice and kind and generous. He’s patiently answered my many questions on this subject. I met him in person last October and he was delightfully gracious. This is a silly argument. Vaccinate your children unless told to avoid vaccinations by a competent ped for medical reasons. Worrying about the alleged issues that Dr. Bob brings up is just irrational. If you continue on that path, the public has the right to tell you to stop. If you refuse, the public has the right to restrict your freedom. You do not have the right to infect others deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/99 "2015-01-23T22:22:31Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > And you wonder why I think you’re an idiot? A patient of Dr. Sears did not vaccinate their special-wesical snowflake and went abroad where they brought back measles to to others. I am sorry these facts seem beyond your comprehension or why you think I am back peddling when I use various phrases to state that fact. > > [Here](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/) is an extremely detailed post about what is wrong with Dr. Bob’s views. If I don’t post the entire post it is because of copyright laws. Please read the fucking thing and come back with any other defense you feel important other than to argue that it somehow matters if his lying is deliberate or he’s just being lazy or whatever. > > [Here’s](http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/vaccine_book_sears/) another one. > > You are not asking questions. You are making stupid remarks, insulting me and defending a man who lies to parents. > > This is a list of some of the problems with his stupid book. Please tell me why you continue to think it constitutes frothing at the mouth to point this out. I expressed no wonderment with regard to your opinion of my intellect. I know you think you are super-important in the field of Vaccination Opinion, but your approval is something I’d actively avoid, as you are obviously a bitter and troubled individual. You aren’t using “various phrases” to state a fact. Perhaps you still maintain that Sears _told_ these parents not to vaccinate? Can you provide a cite for that? I would hope a writer would value the actual meaning of words, but it’s all kind of a mishmash for you, isn’t it? Murder, manslaughter, who cares, right? I’ve read plenty of “he says” this and “he says” that, including the links that work, but where are his words actually saying these things? ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/100 "2015-01-23T22:24:47Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > That Offit guy? > > You mean the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology? The Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania? The Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the present Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia? The author of over 130 papers in medical and scientific journals on issues such the immune responses and vaccine safety? > > That guy? > > FYI, he’s a wonderful person – nice and kind and generous. He’s patiently answered my many questions on this subject. I met him in person last October and he was delightfully gracious. > > This is a silly argument. Vaccinate your children unless told to avoid vaccinations by a competent ped for medical reasons. Worrying about the alleged issues that Dr. Bob brings up is just irrational. If you continue on that path, the public has the right to tell you to stop. If you refuse, the public has the right to restrict your freedom. You do not have the right to infect others deliberately. Yes, the one you verbally fellate at every opportunity. I’m sure he is a wonderful person, but you don’t seem to have any desire to actually evaluate facts for yourself when you can parrot him instead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=6)