# Disneyland Measles Outbreak **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529 "2015-01-21T23:14:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/161 "2015-01-25T19:24:58Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Another Offit point has to do with “hiding in the herd.” Offit accuses Sears of advising parents not to tell others that they aren’t vaccinating and finds this objectionable. Sears does say something to that effect, but I’m not going to look it up to clarify the context, because it doesn’t matter. > > Why is this harmful advice for the rest of us? People follow the example of their peers all the time. If you aren’t going to vaccinate, I agree, you should at least have the decency to shut up about it so as not to encourage others to do the same. Whether you are a selfish sociopath or a misguided nice person, it’s to your advantage AND everyone else’s. The objection “no, you should vaccinate” is a non-sequitur here. > > Acknowledging that a group exists and expressing approval of that group are two different things. Of course, but then one should not resort to exaggerations and straw men about what the critics of Dr. Sears are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/162 "2015-01-25T19:27:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Funny thing that in the quote I made it is Dr. Sears the one who says that. > > And what Dr. Offit said was that" By failing to weigh the relative risks of the disease and vaccine side effects accurately, Sears again misinforms his readers." > > You are doing a strawman by claiming that Dr. Offit said more than that, he never claimed that Dr. Sears did not report on risks, the point was Dr. Sears is not weighting those risks properly. Sorry, but I’m not sure exactly what you are saying in your first sentence. Offit says “Sears does not recommend the meningococcal vaccine for teenagers because of the possible risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome.” Yet in his book, Sears most definitely DOES recommend the vaccine and while he does acknowledge a small risk of GBS, he provides numbers, tells us they are small, and indicates the temporary nature of GBS in contrast to the horrors and death risk from the actual disease. Nothing he wrote sounded even slightly like he thought you should skip this vaccination and he even stressed that is as safe as salt water! ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/163 "2015-01-25T19:29:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, but then one should not resort to exaggerations and straw men about what the critics of Dr. Sears are talking about. I quoted the article and the book directly. No straw men present! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/164 "2015-01-25T19:31:48Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not sure exactly what you are saying in your first sentence. See post #156, you need to pay attention, not only here but you need to recognize that people like Dr. Sears are counting on many people out there to not realize how he is twisting what the critics are telling us. > [@AnaMen](#): > > Offit says “Sears does not recommend the meningococcal vaccine for teenagers because of the possible risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome.” > > Yet in his book, Sears most definitely DOES recommend the vaccine and while he does acknowledge a small risk of GBS, he provides numbers, tells us they are small, and indicates the temporary nature of GBS in contrast to the horrors and death risk from the actual disease. Nothing he wrote sounded even slightly like he thought you should skip this vaccination and he even stressed that is as safe as salt water! We know that in his rebuttal Dr Sears does report that indeed he “believes that parents should have the right to decline vaccines.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/165 "2015-01-25T19:37:58Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I quoted the article and the book directly. No straw men present! You are really what Dr. Sears expects indeed. It is not the same thing to say that Dr. Sears is not weighting the risks accurately (what Dr. Offit actually said) than you or Dr Sears claiming that Dr. Offit said that Dr Sears is “not reporting the risks” (Dr. Offit did not say this) ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/166 "2015-01-25T19:49:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > See post #156, you need to pay attention, not only here but you need to recognize that people like Dr. Sears are counting on many people out there to not realize how he is twisting what the critics are telling us. > We know that in his rebuttal Dr Sears does report that indeed he “believes that parents should have the right to decline vaccines.” I meant there seem to be some words left out or mixed up in your sentence. I’m not mocking you for a typo, I just don’t know what the sentence is meant to say. The right to decline vaccinations is, in my opinion, a political issue not, a public health one. I read his book to determine if he is twisting things with that agenda, and that’s not the impression I got. If you read only criticisms of something and not the thing itself, obviously you’d get a different impression, but more accurate due to lack of reading the thing itself? How so? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/167 "2015-01-25T19:51:26Z")
Anyone interested in “Dr. Bob” Sears’ reputation for honesty might like reading [this article](http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/03/26/bob-sears-bald-faced-liar-devious-dissembler-or-both/) by Seth Mnookin (author of “The Panic Virus”). it includes a nifty photo of Sears posing with (and getting a hug from) none other than Andrew Wakefield, whose unethical and fraudulent research led to demonization of the MMR vaccine and a marked increase in measles cases among unvaccinated children. To supply “context” to the photo, Mnookin says that it was taken less than a week after Wakefield was struck off the British medical register (i.e. lost his medical license), which was in 2010. The antivax site Age of Autism proudly displays the same photo, which it notes was taken at that year’s Autism One conference, which annually hosts speakers condemning vaccines and promoting cures that are supposed to reverse vaccine damage (which include giving autistic children enemas with MMS (an industrial bleach). It is a bit hard to reconcile the Bob Sears who allegedly is “pro-vaccine” with the Bob Sears who gets into a group hug with Andrew Wakefield at a conference dedicated to antivax promotion and related quackery. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/168 "2015-01-25T19:52:37Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I meant there seem to be some words left out or mixed up in your sentence. I’m not mocking you for a typo, I just don’t know what the sentence is meant to say. > > The right to decline vaccinations is, in my opinion, a political issue not, a public health one. > I read his book to determine if he is twisting things with that agenda, and that’s not the impression I got. If you read only criticisms of something and not the thing itself, obviously you’d get a different impression, but more accurate due to lack of reading the thing itself? How so? Do not ignore post #165, you really are asking us to mock you on not reading things carefully, uh? ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/169 "2015-01-25T21:06:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Do not ignore post #165, you really are asking us to mock you on not reading things carefully, uh? I’m reading things and responding because I’m interested in the topic, not because I’ve agreed to accept assignments from you. You mock me because you want to feel like you’re part of some kind of clique and it makes you feel good, like you’re smart and cool. Maybe you feel kind of powerless IRL or have been bullied before. It’s nothing to me if you enjoy mocking me. If it makes you happy, do it more, in fact, as it costs me nothing. My long post covered what you bring up in #165 pretty clearly, so I guess we’ll just have to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/170 "2015-01-25T21:10:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Anyone interested in “Dr. Bob” Sears’ reputation for honesty might like reading [this article](http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/03/26/bob-sears-bald-faced-liar-devious-dissembler-or-both/) by Seth Mnookin (author of “The Panic Virus”). > > it includes a nifty photo of Sears posing with (and getting a hug from) none other than Andrew Wakefield, whose unethical and fraudulent research led to demonization of the MMR vaccine and a marked increase in measles cases among unvaccinated children. > > To supply “context” to the photo, Mnookin says that it was taken less than a week after Wakefield was struck off the British medical register (i.e. lost his medical license), which was in 2010. The antivax site Age of Autism proudly displays the same photo, which it notes was taken at that year’s Autism One conference, which annually hosts speakers condemning vaccines and promoting cures that are supposed to reverse vaccine damage (which include giving autistic children enemas with MMS (an industrial bleach). > > It is a bit hard to reconcile the Bob Sears who allegedly is “pro-vaccine” with the Bob Sears who gets into a group hug with Andrew Wakefield at a conference dedicated to antivax promotion and related quackery. Yeah, I came upon that one too. It’s one of the things that makes me strongly suspect there’s quite a bit Sears has to say on some topics that I would not agree with at all. Sure, he could be trying to get Wakefield supporters to consider some vaccinations, and sure, being photographed with someone is not necessarily proof that you agree with them, but I don’t like the looks of it either. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/171 "2015-01-25T21:36:24Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > The right to decline vaccinations is, in my opinion, a political issue not, a public health one. Interesting. In what way is it _not_ a public health issue? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/172 "2015-01-25T21:43:02Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I’m reading things and responding because I’m interested in the topic, not because I’ve agreed to accept assignments from you. > You mock me because you want to feel like you’re part of some kind of clique and it makes you feel good, like you’re smart and cool. Maybe you feel kind of powerless IRL or have been bullied before. It’s nothing to me if you enjoy mocking me. If it makes you happy, do it more, in fact, as it costs me nothing. > > My long post covered what you bring up in #165 pretty clearly, so I guess we’ll just have to disagree. Avoidance to what was a reply to your long post noticed, again you and Dr. Sears are misrepresenting what Dr. Offit said; there is a big difference (and a misleading one) from claiming that Dr. Offit told us that Dr. Sears \*\*“did not tell us” \*\*about the risks. What Dr. Offit **actually** reported was that Dr. Sears was not being accurate with the risks. IOW: Dr. Offit **did indeed report that Dr. Sears told people about the risks, but that Dr. Sears got the actual risks wrong** and doubling down on the straw man that Dr. Offit claimed that “Dr. Sears did not tell us” only shows an attempt at deceiving others. The bottom line is that it remains reprehensible for Dr. Sears to tell parents that they should have the right to decline vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/173 "2015-01-25T22:38:36Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Personally, I kinda wish Australia had never been settled by humans, because then it would be available to dump all the extremists of whatever ilk and leave them to sort themselves out without bothering the rest of us. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore can stay on your own shore, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/174 "2015-01-25T22:41:01Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Interesting. In what way is it _not_ a public health issue? Like seat belts, motorcycle helmets, etc. Obviously yes, there is a public health aspect, but the assumption that our right to make a decision for ourselves ends where that decision could negatively affect others and exactly where to draw that line and what behaviors qualify is a matter of what we think a government’s role ought to be. Like we’d probably all agree that even though a peanut-allergic kid in school may cost the other kids some lunch options, the answer is not to place the group’s interests ahead of that person’s and ban them (the kid that is) from the school. We probably also would agree that if a kid comes to school and infects your kid with a cold virus, that sucks, but the parents of that kid are not responsible for any cost your kid incurs with a doctor visit or your missed days of work. The question of whether people should be forced to vaccinate from a public health standpoint only is yes. Even if a vaccine actually was very risky, as long as it’s reducing the overall risk to the population, the answer could still be yes. But should the government be able to do that? I say no, regardless of vaccine risk, because I place a very high value on personal freedom, but someone else may believe that it’s worth it to save some lives. I absolutely do think those lives are valuable and am not writing them off carelessly, but what with all the lives lost to ladders and cars and televisions falling on people, there is no perfect solution. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/175 "2015-01-25T22:43:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > …the same goes for Moon hoaxers and deniers of human caused global warming, and I have the experience in past discussions in **all** those conspiracy theories to tell you that on virtually all fortean beliefs there are people that claim to understand the science but then they end up tossing huge bones to the very insane anti-science brigade. > > In all cases I have seen of doctors, professors or experts breaking bad as a result of being part of a group whose fans are off the deep end. Keeping the respect and money of those anti-science fans are big reasons why some doctors/scientists/professors do passable work in their field and at the same time continue to toss those fans trash to keep them happy. That sounds like a pretty good business model, for those willing to dabble with evil. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I would think that it could be applied to all manner of crackpottery. I mean tossing bones is pretty easy, and you can concede the biggest mainstream point, while screwing around with the supporting details. This gives superficial credibility. Ick. **LavenderBlue** : A few pages back you asked whether you should agree to post something at Dr. Evil’s website. I can’t really answer that. But if you do, keep a diary. Track what you hope the effects would be, what you fear the effects might be, then re-evaluate a year or so after your article is published. We pretty much know that it’s a bad idea to, say, give Holocaust Deniers a platform by engaging them in a public and oral debate. I’m unaware of the proper strategy in dealing with Credentialed Pander Bears. It’s something we need to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/176 "2015-01-25T22:50:22Z")
> [@The\_Holdsworth\_Effect](#): > > LB, I’ve waded thorugh this morass (well, at least I think it is, isn’t the Barbeque supposed to be HOT?) because you always come through. Hope you don’t mind I’ve freely borrowed your quotes to help one of my pediatricians (I’m Chief of Staff at present) with parents on the fence. I’d never seen the Dr Novella article (peds isn’t my specialty) and that was worth the time. Hope you never lose it. > > For your purposes in the Pit, I might send you some picks from Roget’s. Or maybe Gargantua and Pantagruel. > > 😃 I don’t know that I ever had it. 😃 **AnaMen** , You are the perfect audience for Dr. Sears. You are not like us idiots who rely on blogs and always see things in black-and-white (post 85), dismiss anti-vaxers as non-people, are bitter and troubled (post 99). You are such a weaselly hypocrite. I mean hey you evaluate facts for yourself unlike those who mindlessly parrot others instead. You don’t trust anyone including the CDC. You dismiss the articles I’ve pulled up because, “Many open with banal errors, claiming Bob Sears is the youngest son in his family, which simply is not true (Wikipedia reports him as the second child of eight), so how accurate is the rest likely to be?” (post 81) Meanwhile you fiercely defend Sears when it’s clear that he makes much greater mistakes and deliberately lies. No one will be harmed by measles if they fail to remember if Dr. Sears is the oldest child or youngest child in the family. The same cannot be said if they buy into his bullshit and refuse their child access to necessary vaccines. Sears panders to your ego and you, like many of his followers, mindlessly eat it up. I wouldn’t care if you just did it to yourself but we have to spend 100k to clean it up and kids get hurt, it becomes rather freaking annoying. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/177 "2015-01-25T23:14:00Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > **AnaMen** , > > You are the perfect audience for Dr. Sears. You are not like us idiots who rely on blogs and always see things in black-and-white (post 85), dismiss anti-vaxers as non-people, are bitter and troubled (post 99). > > You are such a weaselly hypocrite. I mean hey you evaluate facts for yourself unlike those who mindlessly parrot others instead. You don’t trust anyone including the CDC. You dismiss the articles I’ve pulled up because, “Many open with banal errors, claiming Bob Sears is the youngest son in his family, which simply is not true (Wikipedia reports him as the second child of eight), so how accurate is the rest likely to be?” (post 81) Meanwhile you fiercely defend Sears when it’s clear that he makes much greater mistakes and deliberately lies. No one will be harmed by measles if they fail to remember if Dr. Sears is the oldest child or youngest child in the family. The same cannot be said if they buy into his bullshit and refuse their child access to necessary vaccines. > > Sears panders to your ego and you, like many of his followers, mindlessly eat it up. I wouldn’t care if you just did it to yourself but we have to spend 100k to clean it up and kids get hurt, it becomes rather freaking annoying. You have yet to offer up any indication that he deliberately lies. You just hand-wave that away and name call, screeching for his license to be revoked, when that’s clearly not even on the table. I see Sears as a potentially useful tool to get more people to consider vaccinating, but you’d rather quarantine them. So caring about all the hurt kids though! Sorry critical thinking isn’t your thing and you’d rather follow someone else’s instructions about what you should think about stuff, but maybe looking for the right person to follow and latching on truly is the best choice for you. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/178 "2015-01-25T23:20:17Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > You have yet to offer up any indication that he deliberately lies. > You just hand-wave that away and name call, screeching for his license to be revoked, when that’s clearly not even on the table. > > I see Sears as a potentially useful tool to get more people to consider vaccinating, but you’d rather quarantine them. So caring about all the hurt kids though! > > Sorry critical thinking isn’t your thing and you’d rather follow someone else’s instructions about what you should think about stuff, but maybe looking for the right person to follow and latching on truly is the best choice for you. As I believe someone else said in another thread on this subject . . . the irony here is almost a physical sensation. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/179 "2015-01-26T00:19:15Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > That sounds like a pretty good business model, for those willing to dabble with evil. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I would think that it could be applied to all manner of crackpottery. I mean tossing bones is pretty easy, and you can concede the biggest mainstream point, while screwing around with the supporting details. This gives superficial credibility. > > Ick. > > **LavenderBlue** : A few pages back you asked whether you should agree to post something at Dr. Evil’s website. I can’t really answer that. But if you do, keep a diary. Track what you hope the effects would be, what you fear the effects might be, then re-evaluate a year or so after your article is published. We pretty much know that it’s a bad idea to, say, give Holocaust Deniers a platform by engaging them in a public and oral debate. I’m unaware of the proper strategy in dealing with Credentialed Pander Bears. It’s something we need to figure out. I have discussed this with some friends of mine and we are quite torn about what to do. The Aussies say ignore the fucker as they did with Meryl Dorey. Some of my other friends say respond to him but as little as possible with facts. Still others say go after him full throttle. I honestly don’t know what to do. :eek: Meanwhile the outbreak has [spread](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/measles-outbreak-traced-to-disneyland-continues-to-grow/) to seven states. Thanks guys. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529/180 "2015-01-26T07:40:33Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > 1. The actual FACT is that vaccinations DO present SOME risks. This is absolutely not denied by the CDC. > 2. The diseases ALSO present risks. > 3. The advantages of most of the vaccinations OUTWEIGH the risks (for most people), so the best choice is to get most of the vaccinations. Point 3 is made wrong by its qualifier. No, _not_ “most people”. Unless you have an acute allergic reaction to the vaccine, it _absolutely_ outweighs the risk. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, anyone that even acknowledges that number 1 is true is labeled as an ant-vaxxing enemy of the people, a moron, etc. Wrong. The problem is not acknowledging #1; Paul fucking Offit acknowledges that. The problem is when people use it as a way of scaring parents away from vaccinating. When people stress the phenomenally unlikely risks of the vaccines over the very serious risks of the diseases they are meant to present. People like Dr. Bob, who [essentially says “nobody’s going to die of it, don’t worry about it”](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/21/quoth-dr-bob-sears-poor-poor-pitiful-me-you-stupid-people/). Uh, Bob? _You’re a shitty physician_. 1:2000 is not a tiny death rate. The reason people aren’t dying of measles is because almost nobody is getting it, because _most of the population is vaccinated against it_. > [@](#): > > By saying “most” in number 3, I must also be an anti-vaxxing troll/moron/dog-whistling enemy of the people. No, the way you’re putting your argument and the way you’re backing Bob Sears is what paints you as such. It’s about dog whistles - when you start screaming about “welfare queens” and “urban violence”, you don’t get to turn around and say, “Huh? Wut?” when people start calling you a racist. Similarly, when you come into a thread about a goddamn measles outbreak and start talking about how the vaccine has risks, and that for _some people_, those risks apparently outweigh the benefits, then what the fuck do you expect people are going to think? And then you say phenomenally stupid shit like this: > [@](#): > > Ladders apparently cause 164,000 emergency room visits and 300 deaths yearly in the US alone. Most of the deaths are from falls of less than ten feet. Those emergency room visits surely cost the nation some serious cash. Those deaths could clearly have been prevented, had proper ladder safety measures been taken. We could have mandatory ladder safety education, ladder use licensing, or maybe do away with ladders entirely and save some lives. > I could go interview some ladder-injured people or ladder-widows and ladder-orphans and tug at your heart strings, but that would seem kind of silly wouldn’t it? > We accept that some people are just going to die because of ladders and it can’t be helped. We shrug off those 300 yearly deaths and 164,000 yearly serious injuries. Because what we’re talking about is a phenomenal cost increase on using a basic tool that has some inherent risk no matter how you use it. People need to use ladders. They ought to do so safely, but the fact is that standing 10 feet above the ground on a skinny, propped-up piece of metal is inherently risky. Also, it misses one important factor: > [@](#): > > The reality truly is that the risk of death by measles here in the US is tiny, so the hysteria and insults over someone simply acknowledging that fact is dumb. _The only reason this is true is because we have vaccines_. Compromise that herd immunity, make the disease freely communicable again, and those numbers skyrocket. That’s the real danger of antivaxxers. Not “their kid might get measles” but “everyone’s going to get more measles”. Nobody’s flinging shit at you because you’re saying “there’s a risk, let’s vaccinate anyways”. People are flinging shit at you for making blatantly stupid antivaccine arguments and throwing out dog whistles left and right. > [@AnaMen](#): > > Anti-vaxxers are just people who love and care about their children and are trying to do what’s best for them in light of their interpretation of the facts. They aren’t failing to vaccinate out of spite or hatefulness. And yet the end result is exactly the same. Funny how good intentions work, huh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disneyland-measles-outbreak/710529.md?page=10)