Strawman, I’ve made no such claim. And still you don’t answer the question…
Another classy personal attack! I have zero intelligence-insecurity, so no, that’s not the way to get to me. Keep trying though!
YOU are the one complaining about how he’s sold umpteen books and convinced so many people.
He’s only ineffective if he wants people to vax and is ACCIDENTALLY having the opposite effect. You can’t have it both ways.
How can I deny he’s caused a measles outbreak?
Where did I deny this? I have no idea if he is responsible for anyone getting or not getting measles.
My comprehension is actually fantastic. I’m afraid the problem here is that you can’t appreciate any sort of subtleties or nuances to an argument and are allowing yourself to get distracted with random insults and nonsense.
It sounds like you are pretty envious of the influence “Dr. Bob” has. Rather than try to develop equally effective strategies, you bitterly lash out. How pleasant.
Except he NOT considering both sides of the issue. He tells parents there is no tetanus in babies and downplays the risks of vaccine-preventable diseases while playing up the risks of vaccines for them. Is that considering both sides of the issue? Is bringing measles into his community not evidence of his own poor advice? Just how bad does it have to get? I’ve provided you with reputable links about the inaccurate advice he gives and how that’s bad for his patients and bad for his community.
Just what exactly does he have to do besides earn your distrust? Besides writing a book full of lies and causing us to spend thousands of dollars in public funds cleaning up after him?
Again with the “lying” accusations. Being wrong is bad, but lying is much worse. Lying has intent to deceive.
You like to use this word for that exact reason, but have provided zero evidence of intentional deception.
Why is it necessary to overstate your case? Some people would certainly call THIS lying. I don’t really know if you are lying though, since maybe you believe it. I kind of think you don’t, since you’ve provided no evidence, but perhaps you are lying to yourself as well.
Yes, Dr. Sears was responsible for someone getting the measles. The moron told some parents not to vaccinate. The kid got measles after a trip to Switzerland. It took over 100k to clean it up. Eleven kids got the disease because of him.
Stop commenting on this issue until basic facts stop eluding you.
Meh, doesn’t sound like what I’ve read.
I did want to read the Offit paper, but the link you provided says only subscribers can do so.
No one has to “earn” my “distrust.” Everyone gets that for free! I don’t “trust” him, you, the CDC, the pharmaceutical industry, or anyone else’s unbacked-up opinion.
I do think people should vaccinate their children AND that adults should keep theirs up to date. It’s pretty hilarious how many people rant on and on about unvaccinated idiots that haven’t had a shot themselves in decades.
Aw, you don’t know what lying AND you don’t know what trolling is?
It’s none of your business what I comment on. You don’t have to work yourself into a lather because someone does not agree with you. Take a vaccination and relax.
I am curious about where and when Sears has ever advocated the CDC schedule.
Instead, he makes a bigpoint of claiming his own, skipped/delayed schedule is safer (without evidence that this is so).
That same link features Sears saying the following:
*"As parents’ fears of vaccines grow, I think we may see fewer and fewer parents decide to vaccinate. And then we could see what used to be very rare illnesses become more common. We might see measles escalate. We might see diphtheria come back into the United States. God forbid, we might see polio come back. Then children are going to start dying. And then a lot of those parents that had chosen not to vaccinate might change their mind, and they might start vaccinating again, and then new parents might be more inclined to vaccinate their babies if we see these diseases come back.
Now, I hope and pray that doesn’t happen. I hope that we can maintain adequate herd immunity in our country so we don’t see these diseases return. But that worry of diseases coming back into our country, and the worry of diseases running rampant and killing a lot of babies, I don’t think that supersedes the parents’ basic right to choose what they want to do for their children. And if parents want to accept the disease risk because they don’t trust the vaccines, I think they have the right to make that choice."*
So go right ahead and avoid getting your kids immunized, parents. You might change your tune eventually once those diseases become rampant again and lots of kids die or become permanently injured. And even if that happens and these parents still remain doggedly antivax, we mustn’t endorse mandatory immunization because, you know, parents’ rights.
We’d love to. As soon as we figure out what will work. So far, we’ve learned that educating people about herd immunity and community benefit of vaccination does not work. We’ve learned it doesn’t hurt, but it doesn’t help. We’ve learned that presenting parents with science and answering their “questions” about risks they’ve heard about with evidence doesn’t work (and those are intentional mocking quotes, because I’ve learned that their questions are not sincere questions, they’re excuses.)
We have learned that focusing on the benefits to the child of being vaccinated sometimes works. Not often enough, but it’s the only intervention that works even a little bit. Teach them about the illness and the unpleasantness and complications, and a few parents will change their minds and vaccinate. And that strategy is precisely what Dr. Sears is undermining with his false reassurances that vaccines aren’t necessary, that modern nutrition and sanitation mean Americans won’t get measles, that the effects of these diseases are rare, that they can be managed without concern… all of that is wrong, and he knows it’s wrong. That’s why he’s a liar. And the fact that he’s lying about the very things that are, so far, the ONLY effective intervention we’ve got to increase vaccination rates, that is what makes him abhorrent.
These are all reason-based efforts. They aren’t working because you can’t reason with unreasonable people.
There is ample evidence that most people actually do not “reason” their way into courses of action very much at all. Yet there they are, making choices all the time, often bad ones. Often influenced by outside forces. Often choices only in the interest of these sources.
Here you want to get people to get people to make choices that are in their own interest. Shouldn’t that be much easier?
Effective marketing strategies don’t look like the weak efforts of the CDC or pro-vax scientists. They speak to people’s emotions, not their intellect.
Your link doesn’t say what you say it says.
Dr. Sears rebuts Offit’s criticisms (the ones I don’t have access to via the link from one of your previous posts) on his site.
He says:
“I will admit that the book does offer one major controversial idea; my alternative vaccine schedule. However, it is important to note the context in which I offer that advice. At the end of the book, I encourage parents to vaccinate their children according to the CDC schedule if they feel confident in our nation’s vaccine system. For those parents who, after reading all the reasons why vaccines are important in my book, still believe vaccines aren’t safe and plan to not vaccinate, I at least ask them to consider getting the most important infant vaccines so their babies have protection from the life-threatening illnesses (HIB, PC, DTaP, and Rota). Where my alternative schedule comes into play is for those parents who are still unsure about vaccines, but they do want to fully vaccinate. I offer them an optional schedule that gets their child fully vaccinated, but at a slower pace. It doesn’t delay any of the most important shots, but it slightly delays some shots that are for lower-risk diseases. This option is really for parents who would otherwise leave a doctor’s office unvaccinated – parents who are too torn to make a decision, and therefore often don’t make any decision to vaccinate at all.”
I actually agree with you. I’ve said it before: put gigantic disgusting billboards up along highways of measles ridden babies on ventilators. A picture of a sleepless dad getting fired because he missed an important meeting cause his kid was sick. A mom on the phone with a worried look in her face and a bottle of calamine lotion in the other hand with a screaming toddler behind her. Hit 'em where it hurts.
Question is, who should do that? That’s clearly beyond “education” and into propaganda. Should government money pay for that? Should individual doctors pay for that? I prefer my government, the CDC and doctors and nurses to stick to education, rather than emotional manipulation.
Start a third party group for such advertising, and I’ll gladly donate. Make me some gory flyers and I’ll pass them out on the street. But I won’t be wearing my nursing uniform while I do it. I’d lose my licence for that. I’m supposed to educate and inform while respecting and encouraging patient autonomy. Even when I want to scream.
Lack of reading comprehension on your part is not a necessarily a failure on ours. If you can’t be bothered to read links with accurate info that back up what is being said here you’re not much of a credible source yourself. FYI, I am up to date on my shots as are my kids.
When you try to persuade people that a lying doctor who helped start an epidemic of a vaccine-preventable disease is a credible source who isn’t lying, you make it my business. You’re not disagreeing here. You’re demonstrating you don’t know anything about this subject and getting peeved when corrected on it.
You’re doing an accurate job of illustrating when people walk away from this debate in disgust and frustration so often.
A pro-vaccine non-profit should do it. They exist, so why not step up their game and be better at it?
Maybe they don’t really care whether people get vaccinated and just like pointing fingers and claiming superiority over the non-vaxxing dummies.
I don’t personally care enough to do anything about it myself. I’d possibly make a donation.
Basically they just don’t wanna. And they’ve found a ped who not only tells them they don’t have to but they’re better people for it.
The best thing to do IMO is a) pat people on the back for vaccinating, b) stop providing false balance implying that the anti-vaxers have a point and isolate them as much as possible.
Quick, let me complete medical school, become a licensed pediatrician, and subscribe to that journal so I can respond to Offit’s paper.
While we’re at it, you can go too, unless you are some sort of doctor yourself?
Or you could actually provide a working source for it and save me a few years.
I haven’t tried to persuade anyone of whatever crap you’re claiming I have. I doubt you have any idea what I think about this topic, since you insist on a binary viewpoint and resent the slightest hint of information exchange or discussion.
Pro-vaccine ads may actually backfire according to studies. At some point you need to walk away, stop trying to reason people out of a stance that they haven’t reasoned themselves into and just minimize the damage they cause. You certainly don’t have to give a platform to a ped who uses the power of his degree and family background to deliberately lie to parents.
Ok, so we both agree that it’s not Dr Sears’ responsibility to put up billboards of dead babies. Why do you not agree that it’s his responsibility to give accurate patient information? What he is doing is literally the equivalent of telling people, “Oh yeah, you should probably quit smoking, but if you don’t… we have interventions. If you get lung cancer we have chemo and radiation for that. If you get oral cancer we can cut out your face. If you develop emphysema we can put you on oxygen. Lots of people choose not to quit smoking, and they’re fine.”
We’re not having a discussion. You are making inaccurate points and posters like myself are largely patiently trying to correct them. You don’t have to go medical school to read the links I pulled up and understand why Bob Sears is wrong on this issue. You think he’s not lying and essential harmless. That is your opinion and it is a stupid one. As this is the pit I am thankfully free to say so here.
Here are the links again to point out the problems and lies with Dr. Bob.
I didn’t need a study to tell me this was likely. Putting out a pro-vaccine ad is kind of like Bill Nye debating the creationist, or like what would happen if the U.S. government suddenly took out ads denying the 9/11 truther conspriacy; the effort gives credence to the lies.
As much as I dislike the government getting into people’s business, this is an area of externality and interference is needed; it should be against the law to not vaccinate your kids. If criminal charges are overkill, then at the least parents must be extremely inconvenienced - a total ban from public schooling, without the moral/religious exceptions that are so easy to get, is a good place to start.