# Disorders and homosexuality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084 "2003-10-17T19:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/21 "2003-10-18T00:38:10Z")
That should have read “Homosexuals experience significant difficulty when interacting with **heterosexuals** …” If someone could fix that and erase this post I’d be grateful. ---
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/22 "2003-10-18T00:39:19Z")
Argfdgsjsdgjs… **heterosexuals**. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/23 "2003-10-18T01:17:33Z")
**Esprix** : “disorder” is an incredibly vague concept. **Bippy** summarized its in-use definition fairly well. **Bippy** : So, the desire to get a tattoo is disordered? Skydiving is disordered? Judaism and Islam (which mandate circumcisions) are disordered? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/24 "2003-10-18T05:18:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **I can’t seem to find the definition of “disorder” from an acknowledged expert source like, say, the APA. Can anyone help me out here? Seems a simple enough question to answer.** Well, pretty much every definition in the DSM-IV (a diagnostic manual for mental disorders) includes the following as a neccesary criteria: > [@](#): > > The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. So that’s a place to start. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by TVAA_Why shouldn’t society change? If being unable to function in society is the standard, then anyone who wants to change society is by definition sick. (And that means that the doctors who first insisted on washing their hands and instruments before performing surgery – quite “unreasonably”, according to medical opinion at the time – were mentally ill.)\*\* No, that’s not true. Most people who want to change society can function in society. They can hold down jobs, they can interact socially with other people. Seeking to change society doesn’t make you mentally ill. Being unable to leave the house because whenever you try you’re filled with a sense of dread that leaves you paralyzed with fear does. Can you actually not see the distinction I’m making here? ---
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/25 "2003-10-18T05:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*No, that’s not true. Most people who want to change society can function in society. They can hold down jobs, they can interact socially with other people. Seeking to change society doesn’t make you mentally ill. Being unable to leave the house because whenever you try you’re filled with a sense of dread that leaves you paralyzed with fear does. Can you actually not see the distinction I’m making here? \*\* If the person wants to be holed up, then what business is it of anyone to tell him or her how to live their life? Does it matter why they do it? Moreover, there’s no clear line behind that “distinction” you’re making, which is precisely what makes psychiatry problematic. One moment it’s overwhelming paranoia & hallucination, then it’s some avoidant disorder/anti-social tendencies/ODD/CD/dubiously diagnosed Asperger. Case in point: > [@](#): > > LONDON (Reuters) - Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton were geniuses but British scientists believe they may have suffered from Asperger syndrome – a form of autism. > > The condition, first described by Viennese physician Hans Asperger in 1944, is a disorder that causes deficiencies in social and communication skills and obsessive interests. > > But it does not affect learning or intellect and many people with AS have exceptional talents or skills. > > Although it is impossible to make a definitive diagnosis in people who are dead, Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge University and Ioan James of Oxford University studied the personalities of Einstein and Newton to see if the two scientists had symptoms of AS. > > “Newton seems a classic case. He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat, and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had,” New Scientist magazine said on Wednesday. > > Baron-Cohen said Einstein was also a loner and as a child he repeated sentences obsessively. Although Einstein made friends and spoke out on political issues, Baron-Cohen suspects he showed signs of Asperger syndrome. > > “Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly compatible with Asperger syndrome,” he told the weekly science magazine. > > “What most people with AS find difficult is casual chatting – they can’t do small talk,” he added. > > But Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco, said geniuses can be socially inept and impatient with other people without being autistic. > > “Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one’s mission in life might combine to make such an individual isolative and difficult,” he told the magazine. > > Baron-Cohen said he hopes the research can improve understanding of Asperger syndrome and make life easier for people who suffer from the condition. Characterizing “impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one’s mission in life” as making an individual “difficult” and afflicted by some “disorder” clearly assumes a stand-point where slow-witted, careless socialite simpletons are the ultimate arbiters of order. Why not flip the equation, and see them as deficient in intelligence and intellectual drive, or suffering from “idiocy” that makes them “difficult” for more advanced human beings, like Newton and Einstein? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/26 "2003-10-18T06:28:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by electric!sheep \* > \*\*If the person wants to be holed up, then what business is it of anyone to tell him or her how to live their life? Does it matter why they do it? \*\* Because they don’t neccessarily want to be there…that’s the point. They’re holed up because leaving is too painful. It’s the difference between being free and being a prisoner. And that’s why it matters why they do it. Look, nobody denies that physical handicaps exist. Most people don’t say “You’re not diabetic, have another piece of cake”. Most people don’t say to Stephen Hawking “You can walk if you want to.” People don’t say, “If a person wants to be tubercular, what business is that of anyone?” So why is it so hard to accept that mental handicaps exist? Sure, in a lot of cases we can’t pin down a cause, either organic or historical, for the disorder. Sometimes we can. But we do know that some people have a certain set of symptoms grouped together, and we call that “depression” or “mental retardation”, or “paranoid schizophrenia” or whatever. And we know that there are certain behavoral therapies and medications that can reduce the severity of or eliminate those symptoms. The fact we don’t know everything doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything. ---
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/27 "2003-10-18T06:54:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > **Because they don’t neccessarily want to be there…that’s the point. They’re holed up because leaving is too painful. It’s the difference between being free and being a prisoner. And that’s why it matters why they do it.** If they don’t want to be there, then give them what they need to get out, but have some deference for those who like the way they are. \*\* > [@](#): > > Look, nobody denies that physical handicaps exist. Most people don’t say “You’re not diabetic, have another piece of cake”.\*\* I have never said anything of the sort. \*\* > [@](#): > > Most people don’t say to Stephen Hawking “You can walk if you want to.”\*\* Ditto. \*\* > [@](#): > > People don’t say, “If a person wants to be tubercular, what business is that of anyone?”\*\* If they have a non-contagious “disease,” especially of genetic origin, which suits them just fine, then I certainly would say that. It’s called a “variation.” \*\* > [@](#): > > Sure, in a lot of cases we can’t pin down a cause, either organic or historical, for the disorder. Sometimes we can.\*\* Which I readily admit. There is always a cause. \*\* > [@](#): > > But we do know that some people have a certain set of symptoms grouped together, and we call that “depression” or “mental retardation”, or “paranoid schizophrenia” or whatever. And we know that there are certain behavoral therapies and medications that can reduce the severity of or eliminate those symptoms. The fact we don’t know everything doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything. \*\* But you’re avoiding the question: Why are those symptoms grouped together and seen as problematic? Relative to whose “order” are given symptoms representative of “disorder”? ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/28 "2003-10-18T13:43:46Z")
Last I checked, the only people who aren’t at a shrink’s voluntarily are those who are a danger to themselves or others (i.e. suicidal or homicidal) or under the age of consent. I am unaware of any law that would allow a psychiatrist entrance into a peacable agoraphobic’s house to treat them against their will. You want to stay indoors for the rest of your life? Peachy, if you can order your life around it. I have a very nasty phobia for flying, and I order my life around it. It makes living in today’s world difficult, but I don’t really feel like changing. So far the thought police have not dived into my home with injections and pills to medicate me into oblivion. I honestly doubt they ever will. Ultimately, for all but the most extreme cases of any disorder, treatment is completely voluntary. My grandfather has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder (and yes I see the symptoms myself), however he does not wish treatment or medication for it. That is his choice and thus he has received no treatment. A person with clinical depression must first make an appointment and then walk into a shrink’s office before they’re even considered for any type of treatment at all. _You_ must first feel there is something wrong with you, take that step by contacting a psychiatrist, and then maybe treatment will occur. I went to a psychiatrist for depression. Guess what she decided to do? Nothing because it was due to circumstances around me at the time which were putting a lot of pressure onto my shoulders. No pills. Some time to just talk once a week. We parted ways at her advice last semester. ---
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/29 "2003-10-18T19:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priam \* > **A person with clinical depression must first make an appointment and then walk into a shrink’s office before they’re even considered for any type of treatment at all. _You_ must first feel there is something wrong with you, take that step by contacting a psychiatrist, and then maybe treatment will occur.** Alternately, your parents or teachers must feel something is “wrong” with you (under the age of 18) and then can freely medicate because you don’t fit some psychiatrist’s idea of order. But that’s not the main point, the core issue is that elements of a supposedly scientific, respectable field are making _moral_, _subjective_ judgments about forms of behavior which may be entirely acceptable to the target persons, or even contribute to the greater good of society. That people cannot see the ideologue through his lab coat is the worse thing of all. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/30 "2003-10-18T19:28:51Z")
Questioning one’s sexuality is symptomatic of some dissociative disorders. The European definition of Borderline Personality Disorder comes to mind. No link, because I don’t think that’s what you’re getting at. It is a clinical psychologist’s job, just like a MD, to distinguish between hypochondriacs and people with legitimate problems. If I wanted ritalin and I went If a patient comes to a clinical psychologist, it is the psychologist’s obligation to try and help the patient regardless of what the patient thinks may help. In particular, personality disorders demonstrate this point, and I will again use the example of Borderline Personality Disorder. People with personality disorders often believe they do not have a problem. To my understanding, clinicians often won’t tell a patient if they think they have borderline. They have to work at treating a problem that the patient does not believe exists, and they have to spend quite some time treading water in order to gain the patient’s trust, as a result of a phenomenon known as “splitting”. Splitting is where the patient views people as good or bad, with very little if any ground in between. If a clinician has legitimate grounds for believing a patient has borderline, it’s their job to fix this underlying problem rather than whatever symptoms they may be presenting for. I give this example to outline how the goals of the clinician and the desires of the patient can differ, which shows why this can happen: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Francis E Dec, Esq_ > \*\* > So homosexuality is no longer a disorder. Supposedly, it is even the case that treating homosexuality is considered legally unethical. If a homosexual requests treatment with the aim of becoming heterosexual, a doctor is supposed to refuse such treatment. I’d be interested if someone could verify this.\*\* But, let’s consider a patient had become homosexual through a series of unwanted environmental factors and was having great internal conflict over their homosexuality. If this person wants help to return to heterosexuality and it is for their benefit to do so, the clinician should help them. For the second point: To my best understanding, a disorder is a set of clinical symptoms which can be _reliably_ distinguished from other conditions. This is done using scientific tools as we can best apply them to clinical psychology, such as factor analysis. It’s definitely not pseudo-science and turtles all the way down, and there’s already a thread discussing that started by you, **TVAA.** It’s the best application we currently have of scientific tools and framework to a complex series of problems, and it is helpful to many many people to apply this framework. ---
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/31 "2003-10-18T20:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrsam \* > **To my best understanding, a disorder is a set of clinical symptoms which can be _reliably_ distinguished from other conditions.** How do you determine what sort of “symptoms” are “clinical”? A non-clinical symptom would merely be “variation,” correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/32 "2003-10-20T15:20:00Z")
Refuting **TVAA** So, the desire to get a tattoo is disordered? The desire is considered suspect, that is why it is allowed only to those who are able to concent. It is then made their choice to measure the benifit against the pain of a tattoo. Skydiving is disordered? Society makes decisions over which sports and activities are so dangerous as to be dissallowed, skydiving with a parachute is allowed by society, skydiving without a parachute is dissallowed. Judaism and Islam (which mandate circumcisions) are disordered? Society again considers the suffering caused by being dissalowed from following the strictures of these faiths to be worse than the suffering caused by the circumcision. Now for a definition of society in my uses above and before in this thread. Society is what we make it! It is the organisation of human beings in the attempt to create a peaceful and proseperous place to live. Society is a malliable thing and the members of society should use whatever means they can to ensure society is in a form that is stable, moral, and just. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/33 "2003-10-20T15:24:40Z")
But on what ground? By what standards does society decide? You’re leaving the most important issues in this discussion undiscussed. _Why_ should we care about any particular judgment of society? _How_ are those judgments justified? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/34 "2003-10-20T18:21:06Z")
Society organizes itself into decision making bodies. Whether that is democraticaly ellected government, libertarian rule over ones own propperty, beurocracy, or tribal elders… People are caught to varying degree within their localities dominant society. If you oppose your societies ruling, you need to either change your society from within, or find a society more akin to your beliefs. Any societal judgement is justified by the lack of opposition to that judgement by members of that society. From my perseption of the United States society, and its rules, I explained why tattoos, skydiving, and circumcisions are not considered to be disorders. (b.t.w. I am not considering the morality of societies choices in these cases, just societies reasoning.) Since circumcision has reared its ugly head, do any dopers no of any countries in which the practice is illegal except in medical necessity? ---
**Author:** ![electric\_sheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@electric\_sheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/electric_sheep)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/35 "2003-10-20T18:42:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless \* > **Society organizes itself into decision making bodies. Whether that is democraticaly ellected government, libertarian rule over ones own propperty, beurocracy, or tribal elders… People are caught to varying degree within their localities dominant society. If you oppose your societies ruling, you need to either change your society from within, or find a society more akin to your beliefs. > Any societal judgement is justified by the lack of opposition to that judgement by members of that society.** Entrenched, not justified; do you believe the Holocaust was justified because of an apparent lack of opposition during WWII? “Standards” are set merely in the recognition of their validity, and so it is up to each individual to decide which ones they choose to accept. Factually, there is no singular “culture,” but a range of different points of view, some of which end up being louder than others–_depending on where you put your ear_. More and more, the very notion of culture is disappearing within the now only so-called “Western” world. Is there any reason to accept the vision of society that some psychiatrists are trying to press? This is far from a throwaway point. (Partially reposted from the other disorders thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/36 "2003-10-20T19:16:13Z")
**Bippy** , where does your definition come from? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/37 "2003-10-20T20:19:41Z")
**Esprix** : “_In DSM-IV, each of the mental disorders is conceptualized as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (e.g., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above._” There you go – straight from the DSM IV. Parse that if you can. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/38 "2003-10-20T21:30:49Z")
Yes **electric!sheep** when I said justified, I meant justified from the point of view of the society, not justified in any moral sense. But the Holocaust example gives a good reason for my belief that any society that is not answerable to all its citizens exists on dangerous ground. Democracy for instance has the danger of being ruler ship by the majority at the expense of the minorities, but with the requirement that the democratic society is answerable too its citizens for anything it does makes for a more moral form of government. **Esprix** the definitions I’m using are coming from the sawdust I keep between my ears. To encapsulate, I think it may be reasonable to force treatment on a dangerous schizophrenic person, this can happen because the society in which the schizophrenic person lives can decide if the person is a danger to them self and others. The society must also be answerable to the schizophrenic, and so each member of the society should ask them self that if they were similarly afflicted, would they wish their society to act this way. Society can then deem the person to be suffering from a schizophrenic disorder. A society which would force the changing of homosexuals to heterosexuals, would have to have felt the same way as for the schizophrenic above towards the Homosexual’s state of mind. Such a society would be to my mind immoral, and if I existed within it I would be duty bound to change that society. Fortunately there are few if any societies like the one just imagined. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/39 "2003-10-20T21:31:55Z")
**Mr. Svin** , I don’t intend on parsing anything. What I wanted was the baseline defintion from whence the OP can work. Just looking for common language here. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084/40 "2003-10-20T22:12:30Z")
Maybe it’s helpful to think of disorders not as residing exclusively in the individual or in society’s view of him, but rather recognizing that both are part of each other. More of a cooperative endeavor (it helps to let go of the need to assign blame). Disorder then could refer to the friction that occurs when two parts of the same whole are at odds. So homosexuality was a disorder, and we’ve cured it, not through talk therapy, but through activism. As was left handedness. Hopefully learning disorders, anorexia, and bulimia will be “cured” someday too. Just one therapist’s opinion. Oh, and it was mentioned earlier that a therapist would treat a homosexual who desired to become hetero. by treating the desire itself. False, at least in my office. It’s really not possible to say for sure what course treatment would take, it all depends on the individual. Most likely, the person is suffering a great deal of anxiety and inner conflict. Therapy would likely involve bringing that stuff out, comparing it to reality, and coming to peace with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disorders-and-homosexuality/208084.md?page=3)