# Dispatches from post-racial America. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 9, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618 "2015-03-09T17:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/61 "2015-03-10T21:38:27Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Now the poor little darlings who have been expelled are having people claim their right to free speech has been violated. Nah, it’s more like they were expelled for having a terminal case of the dumb. Hiding under a hood is mandatory if you want to be blatantly racist with impunity. That was true 50 years ago and it’s especially true in the era of youtube and camera phones. I guess these idiots don’t know their history. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/62 "2015-03-10T21:38:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That is not to say that every American is some bro yelling about niggers on a party bus, of course, but I can assure you that there are any number of Oklahomans quietly muttering to themselves about how the boys were right, and even more asking what the big deal is. > > - Former knucklehead frat boy I think you might be surprised. I have lived in Oklahoma most of my life (I’m 52). I have many friends that you would probably assume were among the mutterers. I have yet to hear one person defend the actions of the knuckleheads. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/63 "2015-03-10T22:31:48Z")
> [@Trion](#): > > Have the braintrusts at 4chan gotten around to doxing these guys yet, or are they still working through the list of female video game players? These guys are 4chan’s primary demographic. Or at least /pol/'s. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/64 "2015-03-10T23:54:33Z")
Any one else curious as to who leaked the tape and why? I mean, they were probably be a SAE member, right? Was this the work of someone so idiotic they didn’t think twice about releasing this? Or did they just say “fuck it, these scum need to be outed”? I’m intrigued. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/65 "2015-03-11T00:14:26Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I have many friends that you would probably assume were among the mutterers. I have yet to hear one person defend the actions of the knuckleheads. But there can be all sorts of reasons you’ll never hear someone in your circle mutter a thing; heck, folks might even claim to find X appalling when they don’t in fact. Plenty of stuff folks think or believe something they’d deny or never admit to another living soul … and sometimes not even to themselves. I’m sure most people with even a limited circle of friends are associated with more than one person who believes in or does objectively awful things, including but not limited to racism; that such info isn’t disclosed doesn’t mean much. I shudder to think what would happen if people were assured expressing a given view/preferences wouldn’t subject them to any negative impact or ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![PeskiPiksi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@PeskiPiksi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeskiPiksi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/66 "2015-03-11T00:28:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is the story of racism, oppression, and even genocide. Surely plenty of Nazi soldiers and camp guards didn’t hate the Jews, but they went along with killing them. Surely plenty of slave-owners and overseers didn’t hate black people, but they went along with treating them abominably. Surely plenty of southern white people didn’t have murderous intent towards black people, but they went along with lynching them. > > And I’m not being flippant – most people involved in killing the Jews probably didn’t have murderous hatred of all Jews. But they went along with it because it was easier than not going along with it. > > “Going along with racism” has as bad a track record, through history, as racism. It doesn’t matter, to me, whether they had those feelings in their heart – by going along with it, they are just as guilty as those who actually have those feelings. Good point, well made. I agree with you. > [@](#): > > Any one else curious as to who leaked the tape and why? I mean, they were probably be a SAE member, right? Was this the work of someone so idiotic they didn’t think twice about releasing this? > Or did they just say “fuck it, these scum need to be outed”? I’m intrigued. The video was originally submitted anonymously to the campus newspaper The Oklahoma Daily, so it seems, at least, one person on that bus had a conscience. The girls on the bus were supposedly Tri-Delts, and it’s speculated that it was one of the girls who submitted the video, but I’m not sure now where I read that…may be just chatter I picked up on my Facebook feed. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/67 "2015-03-11T00:39:26Z")
“Delta Delta Delta, can we help ya help ya help ya…get expelled for being a racist piece of shit?” . ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/68 "2015-03-11T01:56:17Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > You’re probably a bigot. > If … > > It bothers you that black people can use the “n”-word, but you can’t You may not be a bigot, just an idiot. > [@jsc1953](#): > > You wonder why things like the SAE chant aren’t covered by Freedom of Speech Then you are certainly an idiot, because the chant is covered by “Freedom of Speech”: no government entity has invoked a law to punish the twits for their behavior. (Suffering other consequences for one’s stupid behavior is just part of life.) > [@jsc1953](#): > > You like to observe that black people can be racist, too… Noting that blacks are capable of racism is not a problem; it is a true statement. If you “like” to make the observation, then you are an idiot, (and, for this, you may be a bigot). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/69 "2015-03-11T02:09:49Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > One of the reasons we’ll never end racism on the personal level is that so many people require the use of the word “nigger” to even see racism. Absolutely true. I had dinner with a couple, a few weeks ago, who were utterly horrified to have been accused of racism. In the context of the specific event, they were probably right to be indignant. They had behaved in a consistent manner in a specific situation treating everyone involved exactly the same, handing out rewards and consequences based solely on behavior regardless of ethnicity. (One person who was simply told, for the umpteenth time, to stop doing a specific thing that no one else was doing, with no actual sanctions leveled, made the accusation.) On the other hand, the couple then went on a lengthy diatribe decrying the behavior of “those people” and citing all sorts of stupid examples for each of which I could provide numerous counters of whites behaving the same way, each of which they shrugged off as “different.” It just never dawned on them that their attitudes were racist. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/70 "2015-03-11T03:21:09Z")
Actually, it may well be a First Amendment violation for a public university to expel students for hate speech. Why wouldn’t it be? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/71 "2015-03-11T10:34:58Z")
1960’s racism in the South? I attended school duing the 60’s in a _liberalish medium-sized town in Northern California_ and AFAICR there was _never a single black student enrolled in any of the schools I attended_. Not one … though there were blacks living just a few miles away. When blacks were home-hunting, real estate agents told them ‘Nothing for sale in that town, let me show you some neighborhoods where you’ll be more confortable.’ > [@](#): > > Jackson County Sheriff spokesperson Cherie Ward said the deputy was terminated immediately after the sheriff became aware of the video on Monday. That the deputy was racist had probably been well known to the Sheriff’s office for a long time. He was fired not for being racist, but for the publicity of a racist video. > [@Clothahump](#): > > Actually, they are only important to poverty pimps like Al Sharpton, and to the media, who blow them out of proportion for ratings. > > … It was a bunch of stupid kids singing a stupid song. Does that indicate that our entire society feels that way? Obviously not, because if it did, the frat would not have been kicked off campus the way that it was. [my underlining] If we assume that **Clothahump** is sentient and his ideation meaningful, America isn’t racist unless “our entire society” is racist. :eek: I wonder if those reporting blacks as less intelligent than whites have found a way to skew the stats by deleting sub-human whites like **Clothahump** from their averages. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/72 "2015-03-11T12:10:13Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Actually, it may well be a First Amendment violation for a public university to expel students for hate speech. Why wouldn’t it be? “Creating a hostile environment” You can’t freely make rude sexual references in any work environment, University or not. The same issue apples her. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/73 "2015-03-11T12:21:05Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > “Creating a hostile environment” > > You can’t freely make rude sexual references in any work environment, University or not. > > The same issue apples her. How is employment law relevant here? This was on a privately chartered bus headed to a party. People are not guaranteed freedom from hostility wherever they are. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/74 "2015-03-11T12:43:41Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > “Creating a hostile environment” > > You can’t freely make rude sexual references in any work environment, University or not. > > The same issue apples her. In the United States, unlike much of the world, our free speech rights generally trump our rights to freedom from hate speech. While the issue is not entirely settled at the Supreme Court level, the overwhelming weight of authority is that there is no First Amendment exception for “hostile learning environment.” Papish v. Board of Curators, 410 U.S. 667 (1973); Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169 (1972); Dambrot v. Central Michigan Univ., 55 F.3d 1177 (6th Cir. 1995); Iota Xi v. George Mason Univ., 993 F.2d 386 (4th Cir. 1993); UWM Post v. Univ. of Wisc., 74 F. Supp. 1163 (E.D. Wis. 1991); Doe v. Univ. of Mich., 721 F. Supp. 852 (E.D. Mich. 1989). Title VII may well be the University’s legal theory, but it’s a weak one. If these kids sue, they are likely to win. I imagine their lawyers will advise them that the negative publicity of suing outweighs any potential gain. (None of which has any bearing on the OP, I don’t think. But I thought it important to correct this common misunderstanding about how hate speech works in the US.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/75 "2015-03-11T12:56:43Z")
This can’t be the first time an issue like this has been explored legalistically… has any other public university ever expelled a student for racist speech in public (or recorded)? Did any of the students ever sue? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/76 "2015-03-11T13:14:59Z")
Yes and yes. AFAIK, the university has lost every case eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/77 "2015-03-11T14:08:45Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Hell, my parents are Indian and hate black people. Well, my mom is dead, so I don’t think she’s hatin’ on anybody, but when she was alive…but I know the one thing that might make her rise from her grave and descend on me is me marrying a black guy. That, or a Muslim, either one would make her spin in her grave. > > When you ask them about the inequalities in India, and how badly women are treated, despite the pedestal they are put on\*, and about the disparity between the rich and the poor, they immediately point to the fact that India only got its independence in this century. They were ruled by a white government who thought they were barely better than monkeys. My parents lived through the Partition. True dat. All that is true. > > But they cannot compare this to the systemic injustices black people have also suffered, in living memory, and are suffering right now. To them it’s (heh) black and white: if black people don’t want to be arrested so much, well, then, they shouldn’t commit so many crimes. > > Perfectly intelligent people hold this viewpoint. And on the surface it seems to make sense. Until you dig just a little into places like Ferguson and realize what a foolish statement it is. > > \*Probably part of the problem. India is huge on the Madonna/Whore Complex. Not to defend your parents (not that you asked anyone to), but the attitude that blacks (both African blacks and American blacks) are on a lower strata than Indians is somewhat pervasive among the parents of Indians I know, and is held by some in my generation as well. Heck, I used to date an Indian girl who was actually taught to believe that blacks were a different species. Yes, really. She didn’t hold this belief herself when we were dating, at least she said she didn’t, but she was a little too willing to excuse those who did for my tastes. This attitude about blacks also had (or has) little to do with skin color as although my former girlfriend and her family are a few shades darker-complexioned than what is commonly termed ‘wheatish’ in India’s very skin-color conscious culture, blacks of African ancestry, regardless of skin color are considered inferior, even by those who have never met a non-Indian black person in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![PeskiPiksi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@PeskiPiksi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeskiPiksi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/78 "2015-03-11T14:11:15Z")
My understanding is that they weren’t expelled for hate speech, exactly, but because they violated the University’s code of conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/79 "2015-03-11T14:37:53Z")
> [@PeskiPiksi](#): > > My understanding is that they weren’t expelled for hate speech, exactly, but because they violated the University’s code of conduct. Right, but the code of conduct is unconstitutional if it allows a state actor to discipline citizens for their exercise of protected speech. That’s the holding of several of the cases I listed above. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618/80 "2015-03-11T18:29:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Right, but the code of conduct is unconstitutional if it allows a state actor to discipline citizens for their exercise of protected speech. That’s the holding of several of the cases I listed above. True (unfortunately), and the expelled brats with standing may undertake the years’-long effort to address. Meanwhile the university may be compelled to reexamine how it should address this problem and others. Here, through its ability to discipline a fraternity that engages in discriminatory practices (after all, they and other frats declare in this and similar songs that they’ll never allow a “nigger” to be a member). As has been pointed out elsewhere, if the punishment for discriminatory conduct of a frat is to ban that frat from operating at the university, the university might want to examine other types of punishment that might inspire the kids to leave. I don’t know enough about the university to know whether the punishments for such conduct include expulsion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispatches-from-post-racial-america/714618.md?page=5)