# Dispelling US Health Care Myths: Part 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997 "2010-01-22T16:09:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/281 "2010-01-27T04:56:50Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > And why is it ridiculous? Please explain it to me. > > Just because we don’t happen to have a rule today that says we take away heated comfort from one home (via higher taxes) to provide to another home (via fuel credits to the poor) has no bearing on its moral substance. Are we wrong as society for letting this happen or not? Current laws or tax codes are not relevant with this hypothetical. Morals are morals. Justify the moral stance of this situation. > > I’m sure someone somewhere with worse medical predicament than you could use your extra tax contribution. Yes, what it really all boils down to are morals. It takes a lot to drive by a car accident and say to yourself, “serves them right.” It tends to be easier when you’re at a distance, when stopping isn’t an option. Or when you’re on a message board and nothing really matters. The moral debate is very deep and very complex, and at this point I just don’t have the energy to put together a sufficient essay about the importance of member contribution to society, and how each member can contribute slightly different amounts but still be okay. Without meaning to sound condescending, it feels a bit like I have to go back and explain we using fire was a good idea, in order to get everyone up to speed on using electricity. Said another way, I have survived life in a socialist country, and so have you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/282 "2010-01-27T08:02:26Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > All of us (_including_ the liberals) have all answered like **Bricker** did – at least implicitly – through our actions. We all assign a “cost” to helping people. All of us do it. What he said was an absolute - it is wrong to tax him (or anyone) to pay for someone else’s health care. I don’t believe that, nor do any liberals I know of. I think it is wrong to pay 0, but it is also wrong to force someone to pay 100%. The right level between those two is going to differ among people. But it is not the same thing. > [@](#): > > You are sitting there at your computer typing your post is consuming electricity that could warm a homeless person on this cold winter’s night. We could certainly tax all citizens more to the point that they can no longer afford to turn their thermostats up as high. Big deal, they can just wear sweaters so that the homeless and poor can stop shivering. We take away a little comfort from the people in heated homes to give warmth to poor folks that have no heat at all. I see no liberals volunteering for such an arrangement. There’s a word for that type of inconsistent behavior: it starts with an “h”. Progressive taxation is all about getting those who can afford it to pay more. I think the Bank CEOs can afford to pay a few percent more without freezing to death. In any case, the argument that because it is possible to tax someone to the point of pain taxing anyone anything is wrong is immoral and dishonest. If you find a society that does what you claim we can both be outraged, until then the argument is morally bankrupt. > [@](#): > > For example, we could propose to post guards at all bus stops to prevent child abduction. If someone dares to raise the issue of cost, we can just use the weapon of emotional appeal, _“the cost estimations are irrelevant because us moralists on our high-horse believe it is our societal duty to prevent a child from being kidnapped.”_ > > You can use that technique for _everything_. So, you’re saying that because we can’t afford to post guards at safe suburban schools we shouldn’t post them at dangerous urban schools with a record of problems? > [@](#): > > Then get together all the like-minded folks and pay for everyone else’s health care. Oh that’s right – that’s not enough, you also want the _money_ from the folks who don’t agree with you. It would be lovely if we could all take up a big collection and pay for healthcare for the poor. But since that doesn’t seem to be happening for any number of reasons, I’d just as soon not have people die. And you guys seemed happy to force me to pay for Iraq - though I must admit that to keep costs down you didn’t provide the armor the soldiers needed for quite some time. Poor people dying because of not enough support, soldiers dying because of not enough support, at least you’re consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/283 "2010-01-28T03:08:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Please define Obama Care. I see a bill by the house and another by the senate. I did not know Obama had one too. Tell us about Obama care. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094304575029331665110908.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094304575029331665110908.html) Thanks for posting the links on Medicaid fraud. The sheer waste of that program if trimmed could help pay for the poor that don’t have Medicaid. To get Medicaid you have to bring home less then 800 a month. Medicare is much better managed. Medicare is for seniors and the disabled that worked and paid in. Medicaid is for the poor who have less then 800 dollars a month income or the disabled that did not pay in. Medicaid is free. Medicare is not. On Medicare you have a monthly premium and copays on medical treatment. You also have to pay a premium for Part D if you want prescription coverage and then copays at the pharmacy. On Medicaid, where the most waste is seen, is because it is totally free. Mothers using emergency rooms for routine medical care because they don’t have a primary care physician. My friend I told you about that took an ambulance to the ER for gas is also exploited by the ER. Everytime she goes to the ER which is often as she has Hypochondria she gets an IV put in. That is an 800 dollar procedure paid in full by Medicaid. Do they need to put an IV in everyone that goes to the ER? No, but if you let them they will and it helps to build that new Cardiac wing. I called the fraud line and reported when they wanted to do a spinal tap on her when all she had was a head cold. Luckily she said no but she has had every test known to man done to her to jack up the bill. Shame on the hospital for exploiting her. So the hospitals need to stop taking advantage of Medicaid and Medicaid patients need to pay partially for extra services. They should not use ambulances as taxi’s. They need to go to a GP for a head cold, etc. Medicare Fraud needs to be cut also but because people on Medicare have co-pays they don’t abuse the system as badly. I won’t pay a 50 dollar copay to go to the ER when I can see my GP for 25. My Mom is in Medical billing and I have learned a lot through her. She gets disgusted by the sheer waste. The waste alone could take care of the people that fall between the cracks. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/284 "2010-01-28T23:42:12Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Yes, what it really all boils down to are morals. It takes a lot to drive by a car accident and say to yourself, “serves them right.” It tends to be easier when you’re at a distance, when stopping isn’t an option. It also takes a lot of nerve to barge into someone’s home at gunpoint and confiscate their money. It tends to be a lot easier to do it from the comfortable distance afforded by the government monopoly of force. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/285 "2010-01-29T02:20:27Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Is acceptable for your daughters to burn to death in a house fire because you were a day late paying your taxes? > > I’m not sure how you reconcile that very evil notion with your being a Christian, but I guess you wouldn’t be the first. 😃 > > Everything you have is because of a social program that the US or your state does. Without police, roads, schools, libraries, utilities or fire departments you would be the equivalent of some dude in Somalia. So pretend all you like that you’re the social top-predator and everyone below you is worthless, you are on the teat of a social welfare program as much as any uneducated trailer park mother. > > Ontopic: > You don’t care that for profit insurance companies make it impossible for a large portion of our population to get health care? If someone can’t pay $1200 a month for their health care it’s their fault? Well, sure, because they could have paid that bill if they’d just gone without food or something. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/286 "2010-01-29T02:57:07Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094304575029331665110908.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094304575029331665110908.html) > > Thanks for posting the links on Medicaid fraud. The sheer waste of that program if trimmed could help pay for the poor that don’t have Medicaid. To get Medicaid you have to bring home less then 800 a month. > > Medicare is much better managed. Medicare is for seniors and the disabled that worked and paid in. > > Medicaid is for the poor who have less then 800 dollars a month income or the disabled that did not pay in. Medicaid is free. Medicare is not. > > On Medicare you have a monthly premium and copays on medical treatment. You also have to pay a premium for Part D if you want prescription coverage and then copays at the pharmacy. > > On Medicaid, where the most waste is seen, is because it is totally free. Mothers using emergency rooms for routine medical care because they don’t have a primary care physician. My friend I told you about that took an ambulance to the ER for gas is also exploited by the ER. Everytime she goes to the ER which is often as she has Hypochondria she gets an IV put in. That is an 800 dollar procedure paid in full by Medicaid. Do they need to put an IV in everyone that goes to the ER? No, but if you let them they will and it helps to build that new Cardiac wing. > I called the fraud line and reported when they wanted to do a spinal tap on her when all she had was a head cold. Luckily she said no but she has had every test known to man done to her to jack up the bill. Shame on the hospital for exploiting her. > > So the hospitals need to stop taking advantage of Medicaid and Medicaid patients need to pay partially for extra services. They should not use ambulances as taxi’s. They need to go to a GP for a head cold, etc. > > Medicare Fraud needs to be cut also but because people on Medicare have co-pays they don’t abuse the system as badly. I won’t pay a 50 dollar copay to go to the ER when I can see my GP for 25. > > My Mom is in Medical billing and I have learned a lot through her. She gets disgusted by the sheer waste. The waste alone could take care of the people that fall between the cracks. Medicare fraud is a construction of doctors and labs doing false billing.. It is not about a patient going to a doctor. There are billions stolen through pharmacies and doctors in cahoots. Add in the equipment manufacturers overcharging Medicare by multiiples for equipment ,then you are finding big time fraud. . Congress has made a start at stopping it but the equiipment lobbyists were successful in keeping a measure from being pqssed. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/287 "2010-01-29T04:45:00Z")
Gonzo, Eureka! Now I understand what the big issue is at our local hospitals. It is Medicare and Medicaid fraud. In the last 5 years they have been doing non stop building. The two hospitals nearest me have doubled in size. I was wondering where the money was coming from. Even with the local economy as bad as it is both hospitals are both doing massive construction of all new wings and parking lots. It looks like the Taj Mahal. The hospital also took over most of the medical billing for all the local doctors under the hospital. My GP and most of the specialists just moved into a huge brand new facility paid for by the hospital. It is huge and ultra modern. Now my PC doctor bills come through the hospital. Now that I think of it Wentworth Douglass has been in the paper a lot lately. Some big security breach where they fired the lab that was doing their blood work for years. The lab reported the hospital for doing something illegal? My little town is embroiled in Hospital Gate! Well now I know a little bit more of the story… ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/288 "2010-02-19T06:00:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ > > So much error. > > Do you play Monopoly? I did a lot, as a kid. Most of my friends had this asinine rule about Free Parking. All the money the Bank collected through fines and penalties from Chance and Community Chest actions, and sometimes even the money the Bank collected by selling property and/or houses, ended up in the middle of the board, and a person who landed on Free Parking won it all. This despite the fact that the printed rules said, very clearly, that Free Parking was simply a resting place that entitled the player to no rewards of any kind. > > So I would enforce that rule at my house, and argue vigorously for it when playing at someone else’s house. But ultimately, the person who hosted the game made the decision – “house rules.” So more than a few times, I played a game of Monopoly with the “Free Parking Lottery” rule in effect. > > Do you suppose I refused the Free Parking money if I landed on it? Do you suppose that accepting it made me a hypocrite? > > Of course not. Because there is a difference between arguing for the best course for a society to take, and participating in that society’s actual rules. Free Parking Lottery was a terrible rule. But if it was decided that the rule was in effect, then naturally it would be foolish not to use it. This is a brilliant analogy. I used one similar recently during an e-mail debate with a fraternity brother who is of the same mind as you. I bragged that I was fiscally smarter than him, because I don’t pay a cent towards healthcare; while he pays quite a bit. I am (relatively) young and (relatively) healthy, so I figure “why pay for insurance that’s just going to deny me if something catastrophic happens?”. So I don’t have insurance. If I get sick I’ll buy Robitussin. If that doesn’t fix it, I’ll go to the ER. And it turns out to be something like cancer or a brain tumor, and the hospital costs get to be too much for me to pay, then I’ll declare bankruptcy. He accused me of being a mooch. I used analogies similar to yours (The Saints onside kick to start the half was one that I recall) to explain that I was just playing with the system that we have. BTW, thank you for paying for my healthcare… if I should ever need it. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/289 "2013-07-31T16:48:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It is acceptable for people to die because they can’t afford the proper treatment. How about people who will suffer in agony because they can’t afford the treatment? It may not be a matter of life and death, but the condition could sure make them wish for death. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/290 "2013-07-31T21:40:35Z")
Wow, that was 3 and a half years ago? I guess I can add this to my list of threads that I’ve killed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997.md?page=14)