# Dispelling US Health Care Myths: Part 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997 "2010-01-22T16:09:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/141 "2010-01-23T21:21:15Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So why doesn’t that work in the US? Because you are already paying for the fat people at the buffet. You think you’re ordering a la carte, and that with UHC you’d be paying for other people’s food. But you are wrong. There is currently a buffet for old people, poor people, and the people that go bankrupt and can’t pay their bill. You are currently paying the tab. Not the tab that was proposed, we aren’t. The only way the CBO projected budget reductions was based on a number of dubious assumptions that expenses would be cut elsewhere. The incremental coverage itself would certainly cost more. We’d just offset it by, for example, cutting Medicare expenses, despite the fact that Congress has overturned these same cuts for the past seven years as similar offsets. Sorry if this was covered. But I flatly reject the notion as ridiculous that we’ll cover 47 million people previously not covered, and it won’t cost anything more. Your statement “you’re already paying” is true to an extent–it’s just short about $900 billion. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/142 "2010-01-23T22:52:10Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > No, I said that I believe everyone should have enough food, not that the governments job is to take food from Bob and give it to John. I do not believe that food is a right. > > Once again I think we are using different definitions of what a right is. My belief is that rights refer to actions available to individuals. Individuals have a right to buy food, sell food, produce food, eat food that they own or have given to them but they do not have a right to food. Gaining food requires some action by someone. Individuals have the right to take actions, in balance with the rights of other individuals, to get food but they do not have a right to food _itself_. > > As far as housing goes, I hope we can get to a point where everyone has adequate housing. However I do not believe that the governments job is to provide that housing. Nor do I believe that housing is a right. > > Slee To repeat my question, just to be clear, you think that it is more acceptable for people to starve to death than to tax other people to pay for some minimal amount of food for them. Right? Ditto for health care for life threatening diseases. Better to let them die rather than tax me or charge me higher medical fees without my explicit consent. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/143 "2010-01-23T23:14:18Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > True. But it’s also true for every other product & service that’s _not_ healthcare. > > Gasoline is built into your bill. Those companies who use gas more efficiently charge less, and you get the benefit of the gas used, unlike healthcare, where you get no direct benefit from someone else living. > [@](#): > > Worker’s compensation is built into your bill. This is true, since it is a form of insurance. > [@](#): > > Research & development is built into your bill. Cost of goods. If you buy Chinese knockoffs, you don’t pay this. > [@](#): > > Retail theft from other shoplifting customers and dishonest employees is built into your bill. True - but this is not a requirement, in that the cost will be less for stores with better security. > [@](#): > > You’ve made a statement without a distinction. You’ve failed to differentiate what’s unique about healthcare being baked into various things we pay for. You’ve entirely missed the point. The issue is not health care paid to employees, but the increased cost of medical care thanks to hospitals having to cover the cost of those who do not pay by increasing the costs for those who do. This like doing away with foodstamps while forcing restaurants to give free food to those who can show they can’t afford a dinner. And, even worse, allowing McDonalds not to do this but forcing high end restaurants to. Does this make sense to you? This is the current system which you think is so great. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/144 "2010-01-23T23:45:30Z")
My son has insurance. he has a torn rotor cuff. He got an MRI. He has insurance at work. He needs an operation. He contacted doctors. Some don’t take his insurance. One said he should pay in cash and get reimbursed by the insurance company. He has insurance. yep, this is a great system. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/145 "2010-01-23T23:51:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We are linked by NATO and consider our safety a common goal. This is true. > [@Magiver](#): > > Canada spends less toward that goal and benefits from it. This is untrue. Find me a cite that Canada spends less TOWARDS NATO, per capita, compared to the US, and I’ll rethink my position. The US spends lots on its own military, but a similar proportion towards NATO commitments. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/146 "2010-01-23T23:59:50Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > We are going to let a bureaucrat decide how much care to give. The bonuses paid to him will be determined by how much he can save by denying expensive procedures. There will be an upper limit on how much we spend on any individual, and when that runs out they will not be insurable by anyone else. Oh wait, that’s our current system. Why not see how it is handled in other places? You have do get away from this image of the bureaucrat bogeyman who is simply taking the place of the private company claims adjustor, and is getting “bonuses” depending on how many people he denies. In Canada, medical decisions about how much care to give are NOT handled on an individual patient basis. For example, in BC, they are handled by the Guidelines and Protocols Advisory Committee, which is composed of members from a provincial (in this case) medical association (eg. group of doctors) and members from a ministry of health (mainly doctors). Decisions on what procedures to pay for are decided upon on the basis of: # Literature search (previous guidelines, critical literature reviews, randomized controlled trials) # Consultation with experts # Guideline drafts # External review (random sample of general practitioners, random sample of relevant specialists, experts in the field, professional organizations) # Consultation with experts # Approvals (from B.C. Medical Association, Medical Services Commission) # Three to five year planned review (may occur earlier when prompted by new information) # Guideline evaluation (oh and to add, since this is government, the decisions of this group are public, and are open to public viewing. Can the same be said of private insurer’s decisions? So, as you can see, it’s a pretty thorough process, deciding what procedures to provide for people and what we will not fund because it’s unproven or ineffective. And these scientific/medical decisions on what procedure to provide are for EVERYONE. It means that each person does not have to argue with a different claims adjustor or different bean counter at a multitude of insurance companies over what is covered or what is not. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/147 "2010-01-24T00:23:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m 100% certain that no one has a right to a 4-D ultrasound. 🙂 \*Mrs. Johnson, I’ve been reviewing the results of your sonogram, and I have good news and bad news. The good news is that, yes, you are expecting twins; they are fraternal, and they are both perfectly healthy. The bad news is is the the boy is an Eloi, and the girl is a Morlock.\* ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/148 "2010-01-24T02:14:28Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is true. > > This is untrue. Find me a cite that Canada spends less TOWARDS NATO, per capita, compared to the US, and I’ll rethink my position. > > The US spends lots on its own military, but a similar proportion towards NATO commitments. Again, I used the UK as the measuring stick and I did this for a reason. Canada holds loyal to the Queen. The United States spends twice the amount that the UK spends and I specifically did not include that amount in the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/149 "2010-01-24T02:55:33Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > \*Mrs. Johnson, I’ve been reviewing the results of your sonogram, and I have good news and bad news. The good news is that, yes, you are expecting twins; they are fraternal, and they are both perfectly healthy. > > The bad news is is the the boy is an Eloi, and the girl is a Morlock.\* You think I’m kidding but I’m [not](http://www.prolifeamerica.com/4D-Ultrasound-pictures/). ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/150 "2010-01-24T03:21:07Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > (bolding mine)Okay, here we go again. You are already paying for their health care! Okay, here I go again. The fact that I’m already paying for their health care doesn’t mean I’m happy with this arrangement or wish to switch to another arrangement that also forces me to pay for other people’s healthcare. You’re acting as if the only possibility in your mind is for some people to pay for other people’s healthcare. There is another possibility… everyone pays for their own. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/151 "2010-01-24T03:23:16Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Not the tab that was proposed, we aren’t. The only way the CBO projected budget reductions was based on a number of dubious assumptions that expenses would be cut elsewhere. The incremental coverage itself would certainly cost more. We’d just offset it by, for example, cutting Medicare expenses, despite the fact that Congress has overturned these same cuts for the past seven years as similar offsets. > > Sorry if this was covered. But I flatly reject the notion as ridiculous that we’ll cover 47 million people previously not covered, and it won’t cost anything more. Your statement “you’re already paying” is true to an extent–it’s just short about $900 billion. Are you seriously telling me that it would cost $900 billion to cover 47 million people? Do you realize that is $19,000 per person?! I realize that Canada is a third world country with a crappy military, but they only spend $180 billion to provide health care to 34million people, that’s just over $5,000 per person. To cover everyone in the US would only cost $1.8 trillion if people could stop getting MRIs every time they have a booboo. If it would cost $19,000 to cover a single person, you’ve got waaaaaaay bigger problems than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/152 "2010-01-24T03:32:34Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Okay, here I go again. The fact that I’m already paying for their health care doesn’t mean I’m happy with this arrangement or wish to switch to another arrangement that also forces me to pay for other people’s healthcare. > > You’re acting as if the only possibility in your mind is for some people to pay for other people’s healthcare. There is another possibility… everyone pays for their own. Then argue that point! Come up with a comprehensive health care bill that does that. You had (by you I mean Republicans) 8 years to come up with a system where everyone paid for their own health care. Oddly enough, 8 years and two wars went by, and the only thing I remember is Medicare Part D. Can I also point out that you have been paying for Medicare since 1968! Are you just now finding out about that? That is government run, tax payer funded, socialized medicine. What have you been doing for the past 40 years? Frankly, you’re a bit late to the party. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/153 "2010-01-24T04:15:22Z")
Yet the fact remains that your insurance company can just decide to drop you or not to cover a service. That means you have insurance until they decide you don’t. You can pay premiums for a long time and wind up uncovered if they so decide. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/154 "2010-01-24T10:37:20Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Are you seriously telling me that it would cost $900 billion to cover 47 million people? Do you realize that is $19,000 per person?! > > I realize that Canada is a third world country with a crappy military, but they only spend $180 billion to provide health care to 34million people, that’s just over $5,000 per person. To cover everyone in the US would only cost $1.8 trillion if people could stop getting MRIs every time they have a booboo. > > If it would cost $19,000 to cover a single person, you’ve got waaaaaaay bigger problems than I thought. That’s not my number, that’s [the CBO’s](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/73071-senate-health-bill-costs-871-billion). That’s the cost (over 10 years) that must be offset by the phantom expense reductions. That’s what was on the table, the Senate version at least. So, if one concedes that there is some basis for the skepticism regarding the offsetting expense reductions (an acknowledgment it’s not an unreasonable reaction, even if you disagree) then the endless chorus of “but you’re already paying!” ceases, right? I’m not paying _that_. Not right now. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/155 "2010-01-24T12:19:24Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > We are going to let a bureaucrat decide how much care to give. The bonuses paid to him will be determined by how much he can save by denying expensive procedures. There will be an upper limit on how much we spend on any individual, and when that runs out they will not be insurable by anyone else. Oh wait, that’s our current system. I’ll take a health insurance bureaucrat and his bosses administering a legal contract any day… over a government bureaucrat and his bosses administering whatever congress and the regulation writers decide they want to provide to their favored constituents. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/156 "2010-01-24T13:49:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yet the fact remains that your insurance company can just decide to drop you or not to cover a service. That means you have insurance until they decide you don’t. You can pay premiums for a long time and wind up uncovered if they so decide. Is that true? Can health insurance companies unilaterally drop coverage at will, legally speaking? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/157 "2010-01-24T14:12:03Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Then argue that point! Come up with a comprehensive health care bill that does that. You had (by you I mean Republicans) 8 years to come up with a system where everyone paid for their own health care. I’m not a Republican. I haven’t voted Republican since… ever. I provided a link to an article that lays out a good case for a self-paying plan. Did you read it? No. The real shame is that Democrats have no other word in their healthcare reform vocabulary except “universal health care”. There are other ways. What other ways, you cry? Read the article I linked. > [@](#): > > Can I also point out that you have been paying for Medicare since 1968! Are you just now finding out about that?. Can I point out again that I’ve been not wanting to pay for Medicare since 1968? What we’re “already doing” doesn’t mean jack shit to me. I never wanted it and I want it to stop. What do I want to take its place, you scream? Read the article I linked. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/158 "2010-01-24T14:45:16Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Is that true? Can health insurance companies unilaterally drop coverage at will, legally speaking? Well, in the truest sense of the word, they can’t, since they’ve entered a contractual agreement with you. What happens in practice is they fabricate a crock-pot full of lies and drop you from the policy because you were “dishonest” in filling out the initial paperwork. Health insurance companies have the money and the lawyers to prevent you from waging an effective counterattack. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/159 "2010-01-24T15:00:54Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > Well, in the truest sense of the word, they can’t, since they’ve entered a contractual agreement with you. What happens in practice is they fabricate a crock-pot full of lies and drop you from the policy because you were “dishonest” in filling out the initial paperwork. Health insurance companies have the money and the lawyers to prevent you from waging an effective counterattack. Yes, this, or they just find subtle ways not to pay claims. They have dozens of ways to evade payment based just on minor problems in how you submit forms or receipts. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/160 "2010-01-24T16:20:31Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s not my number, that’s [the CBO’s](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/73071-senate-health-bill-costs-871-billion). That’s the cost (over 10 years) that must be offset by the phantom expense reductions. That’s what was on the table, the Senate version at least. > > So, if one concedes that there is some basis for the skepticism regarding the offsetting expense reductions (an acknowledgment it’s not an unreasonable reaction, even if you disagree) then the endless chorus of “but you’re already paying!” ceases, right? I’m not paying _that_. Not right now. Over 10 years? Why didn’t you just say $900 quadrillion and when asked say, “over a million years.” It is absolutely true that the $90billion needed is something you do not already pay. And when you lay it out like that it sounds huge. Can you imagine having to pay $90 billion? But that isn’t what this thread is about. Without any context the number sounds massive, so let’s consider: Medicare already costs $440 billion a year, Medicaid costs $204 billion, and the Iraq war costs $505 billion (spent since 2003). So right there, the tax payer is already paying about $644 billion each year on socialized medicine. And those are only the direct costs for two programs. And from my perspective, a significant chunk of that $90 billion is already coming out of your pocket. As I pointed out, people without insurance, and with crap insurance, end up getting medical coverage in some form. If they can’t pay, it’s already being passed on to you. So it is true that a small amount more is required to get everyone insurance, but it is silly to act as if you are not already paying $644 billion, and to make it sound like you don’t already have socialized medicine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997.md?page=9)