# Dispersing the poor: Good idea or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988 "2013-08-23T18:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/1 "2013-08-23T18:58:21Z")
Spinoff from the [suburbia thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698093). Perhaps the poor we shall always have with us, but that does not mean we have to have any poor **neighborhoods.** ISTM that it is not good for poor people to live next door only to other poor people. Kids who grow up in that environment learn bad habits and a poverty-mindset. If we provide subsidized housing for the poor, better it should be built in non-poor neighborhoods and scattered around, not warehousing them all in one or two skyscrapers. But apparently that is not a consensus-opinion. [**SlackerInc** writes:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16597194&postcount=649) > [@](#): > > I do want to point out too that in case it was not clear upthread, I don’t think it is completely irrelevant where a kid goes to school. One of my childhood friends had a younger sister who was friends with my sister, in fact the whole family was friends with my family. They moved from the medium-size city we lived in to a small town but the son, my friend, was very unhappy there as the only nonwhite in his class (the family is Native American, but the parents are highly educated and financially comfortable). > > So they moved to a poor inner-city neighborhood with a high concentration of Native Americans as well as other minorities. Before long, the younger sister was dating a gang leader (not just a member), and got pregnant by him and dropped out of school. Getting pregnant and dropping out certainly happens in small towns too, but I couldn’t help but wonder if her parents regretted their idealistic liberal determination to move into a neighborhood like that. > > I also have a cousin whose parents–my aunt and uncle–are highly educated and well off, but chose to live in an economically struggling former mill town with the worst level of heroin addiction on the East Coast. And guess what: my cousin is now a heroin addict with HIV, living in a trailer park. Oops. > > These experiences inform my desire to have the worst pockets of poverty and dysfunction broken up and scattered amongst middle-class populations. [**bump** writes:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16598869&postcount=653) > [@](#): > > Here’s the thing though; it doesn’t work. Go look at poverty in Dallas since the 1980’s era decision by Judge Jerry Buchmeyer to break up the Dallas housing projects and scatter the section 8 housing to various apartment complexes around the city. > > All it managed to do is spread crime and poverty around; it didn’t do much for the actual people in the apartments. What ended up happening was a micro-scale “move to the suburbs” where the non-impoverished apartment dwellers moved elsewhere, and the apartments in otherwise nice areas became extremely poor and crime ridden. > > What we ended up with is the rather odd situation of having some really crime-ridden and very poor apartment complexes surrounded by some fairly upscale single family homes. For example, my neighborhood is in northern Lake Highlands, and is pretty high-value; the cheapest homes in my neighborhood start at about $230,000 and go up to the higher 6 figure range. Yet up the street not a quarter mile, we have 3 of the 27 highest crime areas in Dallas, all of which are centered around clusters of poor apartment complexes. > > [http://www.dallasnews.com/news/datab](http://www.dallasnews.com/news/datab)…-hot-spots.ece > > (I live roughly where the 3 of the ones north of “Lake Highlands” intersect) > > Most of those north of downtown are the result of Buchmeyer’s decision; those areas weren’t nearly so criminal prior to it. And yet, the people living in these clusters of apartments are no less criminal now than they were in the concentrated days, so in effect all the decision did is to spread the blight elsewhere. [**rogerbox** writes:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16599788&postcount=654) > [@](#): > > Yeah if you just scatter them like seeds in the wind after eliminating the projects it will not help too much. Regardless, the big concrete buildings have to go. > > I’ve been in two places, though, where I was in a “project” and didn’t even know it. Here in Seattle they have places where Section 8 housing allows you to get some really nice townhomes in developments right next to neighbors who pay 250K to own the homes outright. They’re regularly police patrolled (unlike projects) and the people who live there have their own homes, and even if they’re section 8 they keep them nice because they feel a sense of ownership. This is as opposed to a project where no matter how nice you keep your place, you will still have rats, roaches, and gun battles in and right outside of your home. > > I also was playing with some kids in Indianapolis once before they confessed to me they were embarrassed they lived in the projects. > > “This isn’t a project.” I said. > “Yes it is!” and they pointed out their duplex. > > A bunch of brightly painted, nice looking duplexes that looked exactly like a duplex I had lived in before. The lawns were mowed and nice, and no drugs were being dealt in sight. These kids stood a chance. I don’t think anyone who has ever seen the Cabrini Greens or Robert Taylor homes up close could EVER say that projects are better than spreading the poor out and giving them affordable, safe, clean housing with dignity. Anecdotal evidence on both sides. Does anyone have any non-anectdotal, statistical evidence, studies, anything like that? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/2 "2013-08-23T19:12:42Z")
The projects were a big failure, I find it hard to believe anything could be worse than them but I’d love to see some studies since I know I only have anecdotes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/3 "2013-08-23T19:20:00Z")
Why disperse the poor and take from them what is probably their greatest possessions-their friends and family? Why not disperse the rich? They are already accustomed to travel and trying new things and have the ability to visit old friends if they feel the need. Stick a couple millionaires in the projects and see how fast things improve. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/4 "2013-08-23T19:29:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why disperse the poor and take from them what is probably their greatest possessions-their friends and family? They would take their families with them; and their friends are perhaps not very good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/5 "2013-08-23T19:33:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They would take their families with them; and their friends are perhaps not very good for them. And how good were Paris Hilton’s friends for _her_? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/6 "2013-08-23T19:52:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They would take their families with them; and their friends are perhaps not very good for them. This cuts to the heart of the matter. You think you know what’s best for them. But you don’t. The more the government has interfered with the poor the worse off they get. As to the OP, it’s a terrible idea. People tend to stoop to the lowest common denominator, not rise to their peers. Putting people from housing projects in good neighborhoods will harm the good neighborhoods without benefiting anyone. You can’t solve poverty by shuffling people around. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/7 "2013-08-23T20:21:05Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This cuts to the heart of the matter. You think you know what’s best for them. But you don’t. The more the government has interfered with the poor the worse off they get. Do **you** have any solutions in mind, then, or is poverty an insoluble problem in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/8 "2013-08-23T20:30:18Z")
In theory, the idea is sound, I think. Imma speak in stereotypes here; take them with a grain of salt. I do not feel this way about anyone: Take disadvantaged people - those with no way out, raised by people with no way out, who themselves were raised by people with no way out - and stick them in a community that does all the stereotypical middle class things. Go to work, wash the car, keep up the yard, take value in ownership, responsible, all those things. With luck, the disadvantaged will learn the value of a day’s work, learn how to work towards the things they want, learn responsibility, learn to be middle class. Get them out of the hood, where all they see is the same hood behaviors, show them how to really live, and everything will improve. I definitely see the appeal; it’s alluring. And has very little chance of working. I live in a first ring suburb of Minneapolis; it constantly fights the encroachment of low-income elements. It’s a cyclical thing: everyone in town will be vigilant and things get better, then they get lax and it does downhill a bit, which causes us all to be vigilant… Right now it seems we’re on a bit of the downhill slide again, and I’d be lying to you if I wasn’t nervous. Simply put: low-income, “urban” elements scare the middle class. Add too much to the middle class neighborhood, and those with the means to do so will leave for whatever they think is more attractive because they perceive a huge loss in value. Leaving those without the means to do so stuck in a self-perpetuating decline. Et voila! New slum. It just doesn’t work - the mindsets are just too far apart, too alien, to simply transfer from one to another. We’re talking about generational poverty here. There are no easy answers. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/9 "2013-08-23T20:31:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do **you** have any solutions in mind, then, or is poverty an insoluble problem in your eyes? Create a negative tax that generates a guaranteed amount of revenue up to a formula-derived poverty level for all persons. The poorer you are then below that level, the more money you get. Then they can choose for themselves what sort of communities and housing to live in. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/10 "2013-08-23T21:48:33Z")
Terrible idea, I bet if you took 10 nice houses in well-kept suburban neighborhoods and rented them out to Section 8 folks, 9 of them would be trashed in a year’s time. ETA: Here’s [one example](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060622124324AAtj0gM) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/11 "2013-08-23T21:57:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You think you know what’s best for them. But you don’t. Come, now, practically everyone who is not poor thinks that. Including you, I’m sure, at least to the extent of agreeing that a life of crime is not the best path for them to follow – not even if they live in a neighborhood where no young man is safe unless he joins a gang. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/12 "2013-08-23T21:58:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Create a negative tax that generates a guaranteed amount of revenue up to a formula-derived poverty level for all persons. The poorer you are then below that level, the more money you get. Pretty radical. Like welfare on steroids. Think that can be sold here? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/13 "2013-08-23T22:00:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Terrible idea, I bet if you took 10 nice houses in well-kept suburban neighborhoods and rented them out to Section 8 folks, 9 of them would be trashed in a year’s time. > > ETA: Here’s [one example](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060622124324AAtj0gM) A yahoo answers question? Seriously? If you’re against the dispersal of the poor, then you’re pro-concrete big building with 3rd world quality of life aren’t you? I’d like to know what people who are anti-dispersal think should be done or if we should just write the poor off. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/14 "2013-08-23T22:13:46Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > A yahoo answers question? Seriously? > > If you’re against the dispersal of the poor, then you’re pro-concrete big building with 3rd world quality of life aren’t you? I’d like to know what people who are anti-dispersal think should be done or if we should just write the poor off. I think most 3rd-world countries are that way because of the people living in them. Moving those people to a 1st-world country won’t turn them into polite, lawn-mowing, non-steal-your-neighbor’s-stuff folks. It’ll just turn the 1st-world country into a new 3rd-world country. Same goes for neighborhoods. Oh, I’m all for helping them. Maybe we can build a big concrete wall around the ghettos, and then reward those that are smart / motivated enough to get out with a new job, a college scholarship, or a big pile of cash. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/15 "2013-08-23T22:16:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think most 3rd-world countries are that way because of the people living in them. Moving those people to a 1st-world country won’t turn them into polite, lawn-mowing, non-steal-your-neighbor’s-stuff folks… Whoosh, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/16 "2013-08-23T22:17:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pretty radical. Like welfare on steroids. Think that can be sold here? I would support a negative income tax, on the condition that the EITC (earned income tax credit) and welfare transfer payments be simultaneously eliminated. The EITC stemmed from the idea of a negative income tax, except that it did not eliminate welfare. Even with a negative income tax you would still have low income individuals and neighborhoods that will be avoided by anyone who has the means to do so. Individuals being low income is insoluble. What constitutes low income will adjust over time and region. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/17 "2013-08-23T22:28:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Whoosh, right? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/18 "2013-08-23T22:39:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This cuts to the heart of the matter. You think you know what’s best for them. But you don’t. The more the government has interfered with the poor the worse off they get. What periods of time are you thinking of where the poor were better off than they are now? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/19 "2013-08-23T22:57:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think most 3rd-world countries are that way because of the people living in them. Moving those people to a 1st-world country won’t turn them into polite, lawn-mowing, non-steal-your-neighbor’s-stuff folks. It’ll just turn the 1st-world country into a new 3rd-world country. Same goes for neighborhoods. > > Oh, I’m all for helping them. Maybe we can build a big concrete wall around the ghettos, and then reward those that are smart / motivated enough to get out with a new job, a college scholarship, or a big pile of cash. You should take this post, print it out, and stop people on the street and ask them what they think of it. You might find out it’s very, very ugly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988/20 "2013-08-23T23:23:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > 😕 You said, “Moving those people to a 1st-world country won’t turn them into polite, lawn-mowing, non-steal-your-neighbor’s-stuff folks.” That’s gotta be a whoosh, right? Because if you know anything about American history, then you know that what you are describing always worked before. Sometimes it took a couple of generations, but it always worked. Even the **Irish** -Americans are civilized now! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispersing-the-poor-good-idea-or-bad/666988.md?page=2)