# Disposing of the Ring (here there will be spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032 "2005-01-04T14:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/1 "2005-01-04T14:52:40Z")
I’m sure this has been discussed before, but here we go again. Could _anyone_ have actually thrown The One Ring into the fire of Mt Doom? If yes, then whom? Please explain your reasoning. IMO, if one person could have done it, that person would be Sam. During his assult on Cirith Ungul, the Ring kept showing Sam how great a leader he would be if only he would claim the ring as his own. All Sam wanted was a plot of land he could work, so the Ring held no temptation for him, and could not hold sway over him. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/2 "2005-01-04T14:57:55Z")
Tolkien wrote that Smeagol would have been capable of doing so, if only Sam wasn’t such a jackass to him all the time. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/3 "2005-01-04T15:05:44Z")
I think that no one could have, the ring would have overtaken anyone’s will. Even Gandalf was afraid to touch it. The time Sam had the ring, he shook off the effects but the ring had just started to work on him. Standing on the brink of Mt. Doom he’d probubly have had his mind broken from the strain of the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/4 "2005-01-04T15:08:11Z")
My vote is for Sam, too. Interesting that Tolkien thought Smeagol could. What was his reasoning, **Munch**? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/5 "2005-01-04T15:15:54Z")
Tom Bombadil. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/6 "2005-01-04T15:20:32Z")
I have to think Elrond could have done it, if only he’d been able to wrestle it away from Isildur at the beginning of the Third Age. Or if Elrond couldn’t have done it, at least I’m sure Elrond _believed_ he could have done it. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/7 "2005-01-04T15:37:16Z")
Faramir, I think. He’s one of the few characters shown upon whom the Ring has no effect. Aragorn as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/8 "2005-01-04T15:38:21Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > Or if Elrond couldn’t have done it, at least I’m sure Elrond _believed_ he could have done it. Aye, there’s the kicker. I think Isildur _believed_ he could have destroyed the Ring, too, he just didn’t want to. Remember, the Ring is like a highly addictive drug. Sure, you could give it up at any time, but you don’t want to yet. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/9 "2005-01-04T15:39:34Z")
> [@Lissla Lissar](#): > > My vote is for Sam, too. Interesting that Tolkien thought Smeagol could. What was his reasoning, **Munch**? [Linky Dink (letter #246)](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm) Some juicy quotes: > [@](#): > > If he had understood better what was going between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum’s tone and aspect. ‘Nothing, nothing’, said Gollum softly. ‘Nice master!’. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo’s pity is (in a sense\*) wasted. Shelob’s fair became inevitable. > > ``` > This is due of course to the ‘logic of the story’. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222)4 but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on oneside and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But ‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss. > > I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron’s despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together - and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo. > > ``` There is some extremely interesting passages regarding the necessity for Grace and Mercy to be able to relinquish the Ring, and some very good descriptions of Sam that fall very much short of those qualifications. It seems that Tolkien holds Sam in a form of contempt (as do I): > [@](#): > > Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very ‘trying’. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity - by which I do not mean a mere ‘down-to-earthiness’ - a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional ‘wisdom’. We only meet exceptional hobbits in close companionship - those who had a grace or gift: a vision of beauty, and a reverence for things nobler than themselves, at war with their rustic self-satisfaction. Imagine Sam without his education by Bilbo and his fascination with things Eivish! Not difficult. The Cotton family and the Gaffer, when the ‘Travellers’ return are a sufficient glimpse. > > ``` > Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable - except in his service and loyalty to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt. > > ``` My thoughts: I think it safe to say that of the four hobbits to possess the Ring at any time (Smeagol, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam), Sam was actually the least capable among them. I think Sam would have immediately after losing his master, submitted entirely to the Ring - as the only thing Sam knew was blind duty. That duty would have been turned immediately to the will of the Ring, and Middle Earth would have been lost. Sam proved himself time after time of being incapable of Mercy and thus, incapable of receiving Grace. Hell, even Sauron himself was willing to let Gollum go - Sam wanted to kill him from the start, and didn’t waver on that position for most of the tale. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Crunchy\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Captain\_Crunchy\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Crunchy_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/10 "2005-01-04T15:44:35Z")
A Giant Eagle could have done it! :eek: They could have strapped Frodo on the back of an eagle, and off they go to Mount Doom. Frodo’s eagle would have been flanked by six or seven other giant eagles for protection. Winged Nazgul’s approach and are mobbed by the flanking eagles. Upon reaching Mount Doom, Frodo’s eagle drops him, and the ring, straight into the fire! Frodo is sacrificed for the good of the many. Sure as hell would have saved a lot of time and energy! Ok, ok, I’m kidding guys. I know this would not have been possible\*, not to mention it wouldn’t make for much of a story. - The eagles are not under Gandalf’s command (Radaghast’s maybe?), the burden would be too much for them, they would easily have been spotted, they may claim the ring to themselves! Etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/11 "2005-01-04T15:52:04Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > I have to think Elrond could have done it, if only he’d been able to wrestle it away from Isildur at the beginning of the Third Age. > > Or if Elrond couldn’t have done it, at least I’m sure Elrond _believed_ he could have done it. Elrond: “Hey, look at that!” Isildur (turning away): “What?” Elrond: [pushes him] “Sucker!” Isildur: “Ow! Hot!” Crack of Doom: “Gloop!” ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/12 "2005-01-04T16:04:42Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > Faramir, I think. He’s one of the few characters shown upon whom the Ring has no effect. Aragorn as well. Faramir does say “I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory.” But the Ring was not offered to him and he did not handle it. He refused to forcibly take it from the hobbits, so he did resist temptation of a sort, but I would argue that had he had physical possession of the Ring he may have been of a different mind. Also, **Captain Crunchy Crunch** , you may be interested in reading [this](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Crunchy\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Captain\_Crunchy\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Crunchy_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/13 "2005-01-04T16:23:23Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Also, **Captain Crunchy Crunch** , you may be interested in reading [this](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html). Wow, that was very enlightening! Thanks **Ino**. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/14 "2005-01-04T16:37:34Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Also, **Captain Crunchy Crunch** , you may be interested in reading [this](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html). He managed to avoid the most important aspect of the story with that explanation - that Frodo still would have claimed the Ring as his own, and there would have been no Gollum to intervene. Even if the Eagles had escourted a legion of hobbits into Mt. Doom, all would have been lost since Frodo would have never been given the opportunity to exhibit the acts of mercy that allowed the Valar to bless him with the Grace that was ultimately responsible for the Ring’s destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/15 "2005-01-04T16:45:42Z")
In a nutshell, only someone weak and puny, yet with a strong will and purpose could get the ring to the Cracks of Doom without claiming it for their own. Faramir and Aragorn and Elrond had too much native power and were trained to command and responsibility to escape the insistant demand to use it. Aragorn and Faramir were notable for refusing the ring in the first place, because they know what a disaster it would be for them to claim it, even to “protect” it. Most other characters would have failed thru despair and out-and-out physical weakness (crossing Emyn Muil, Dead Marshes, etc takes its toll). And **Munch** does a lovely job of highlighting both Sam’s strengths and weakesses for this task. No, it was as Gandalf said. Frodo had been selected for this task, via Bilbo, as the only one who really stood a chance. As for the Eagles, that’s a lot of fine Sophistry in the link provided, but in the end, they are the Eagles of Manwë and whatever they do is either at his command, with his consent, or consistant with his wishes. And I doubt very much Manwë Sulimo was going to play the _Deus ex Machina_ card for Men. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/16 "2005-01-04T16:48:59Z")
True, **Munch** , but note that the author of that page assumes the eagles will land and let Frodo enter Sammath Naur. **Captain Crunchy Crunch** posits the eagle dropping Frodo like a bomb into the gaping mouth of the volcano. Frodo could have claimed the ring as his own as he plummeted down, but I doubt he’d have enough time to master it and save himself from certain splashy doom. Of course, as **Qadgop** explains, it’s all moot, but it’s fun to imagine a hobbit shrieking as he arcs through the air. I can even see the eagle looking down through a bombsight determining the proper time to release the payload… ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/17 "2005-01-04T16:54:35Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > And **Munch** does a lovely job of highlighting both Sam’s strengths and weakesses for this task. Praise in a Tolkien thread is one thing, but from QtM, even moreso! Thank you. > [@](#): > > Captain Crunchy Crunch posits the eagle dropping Frodo like a bomb into the gaping mouth of the volcano. Frodo could have claimed the ring as his own as he plummeted down, but I doubt he’d have enough time to master it and save himself from certain splashy doom. Quite true. It also helps if you picture the eagles with pilot leather helmets, goggles, and Don Henley in tow. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/18 "2005-01-04T17:15:17Z")
Great, now I see Frodo as a pint-sized Slim Pickens. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/19 "2005-01-04T17:49:00Z")
Maybe I’m too cynical or something, but the whole “Throw the Ring into Mount Doom” spiel sounds too much like a massive trap Sauron set to get the Ring back. I mean, throwing the ring back into the very fires that _created_ it in the first place? Hello? …oh, and back to something relating to the topic, before I found out what the real ending was, I thought Frodo might throw himself into the lava, just as he felt his self-control starting to slip. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/20 "2005-01-04T18:06:20Z")
> [@dotchan](#): > > I mean, throwing the ring back into the very fires that _created_ it in the first place? Hello? Uh, the fires didn’t create the Ring, Sauron did. It’s not a Lady-of-the-Lake Excalibur thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032.md?page=2)