# Disposing of the Ring (here there will be spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032 "2005-01-04T14:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/41 "2005-01-05T05:26:12Z")
> [@Brandus](#): > > I’d be interested to hear your reasons for considering Treebeard. How do you propose an incredibly slow, large and easily noticeable, walking piece of firewood make his way into the heart of a volcano? I didn’t interpret the OP to be asking who could have made it to Mt Doom, but rather who would have been psychologically (spiritually?) capable of destroying the ring if s/he had the opportunity. > [@Maus Magill](#): > > Could anyone have actually thrown The One Ring into the fire of Mt Doom? No mention is made of getting there, but only of throwing the ring into the fires. ---
**Author:** ![Badge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Badge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badge)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/42 "2005-01-05T09:33:19Z")
Gimli might have stood a small chance. He might have destroyed it out of sheer Dwarven stubbornness. It is well established that the Seven could not corrupt the Dwarf Lords. It did increase their tendency towards greed, though, so Gimli might have had thoughts of all the wealth in Middle Earth at his feet. I do think that there was one other person in Middle Earth who could have done the deed, but he was never a character in The Lord of the Rings: Cirdan the Shipwright. He held two of the Great Rings, and gave them both away. I know that the Three did not control their wearers like the One, but it shows that he had no interest in being a ruler of any kind. He only cared about building ships and seeing that his people have a way to return to the West when they were ready to depart. I can see him tossing the Ring over his shoulder into the Crack, then asking if he could please get back to his ships now. Of course, there was probably no way that the Council could have talked him into doing it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/43 "2005-01-05T10:24:06Z")
Re The Eagles I can think of a reason why it might not have worked. It seems to me that certain individuals are much easier for Sauron to notice. OTTOMH Gandalf is attacked at Weathertop, because he’s much easier to spot than almost any other person in Middle Earth. Hobbits are barely noticable. But, I think such powerful beings as the eagles might get Sauron’s attention regardless of where he was looking at the time. Re Gollum Sauron doesn’t release him out of mercy. He lets him loose so that Gollum can go find the ring, put it on, and throw up a huge neon sign for the Nazgul. I also agree that Frodo’s necessary betrayal of Gollum to Faramir is what turned him back to the path of evil and Shelob’s lair. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/44 "2005-01-05T12:48:07Z")
> [@Badge](#): > > Gimli might have stood a small chance. He might have destroyed it out of sheer Dwarven stubbornness. It is well established that the Seven could not corrupt the Dwarf Lords. It did increase their tendency towards greed, though, so Gimli might have had thoughts of all the wealth in Middle Earth at his feet. > > I do think that there was one other person in Middle Earth who could have done the deed, but he was never a character in The Lord of the Rings: Cirdan the Shipwright. He held two of the Great Rings, and gave them both away. I know that the Three did not control their wearers like the One, but it shows that he had no interest in being a ruler of any kind. He only cared about building ships and seeing that his people have a way to return to the West when they were ready to depart. I can see him tossing the Ring over his shoulder into the Crack, then asking if he could please get back to his ships now. > > Of course, there was probably no way that the Council could have talked him into doing it. Don’t forget that the Dwarves could not resist the power of the silmarlil either – their theft of one from Thingol had some nasty consequences. As for Cirdan, he did give away lesser rings, but even those to whom he gave them would not carry the One Ring for fear of its power, and perhaps he was making discretion the better part of valor. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/45 "2005-01-05T13:09:35Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > I didn’t interpret the OP to be asking who could have made it to Mt Doom, but rather who would have been psychologically (spiritually?) capable of destroying the ring if s/he had the opportunity. Exactly. For the sake of argument, all the orcs in Mordor are out for a smoke break, and the way is clear. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/46 "2005-01-05T13:36:53Z")
Got caught up in my hijack there and never answered the question. Anyway, I think Bombadil is the only one who could have thrown the Ring away of his own volition, because he’s the only one over whom the Ring has no power. Unless maybe one of the Valar were to try and destroy it, and even they’re not wholly immune from temptation. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/47 "2005-01-05T14:10:23Z")
I think it also depends on timing. If the Cracks of Doom were a day’s journey from Rivendell, I don’t think Frodo would have had a problem. It was hanging onto the ring for many many months, hiding in shadows and moving closer to the point of the ring’s power that lured him to the temptation. Even a day earlier, perhaps two days earlier, he might not have succumbed. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/48 "2005-01-05T14:12:14Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > Treebeard is another possibility. I don’t think he is. With possession of the Ring, he would have made Middle Earth the largest arboreum in the universe. No, the only possibilities come down to two creatures: Frodo, and Bill the Pony. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/49 "2005-01-05T15:04:12Z")
> [@lno](#): > > So the approach will not be easy. They will be required to maneuver straight down this valley and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It’s a small fissure, right below the crater. The shaft leads directly to the fires of Mount Doom. A precise hit will cause the ring to fall into the molten rock, which should destroy the ring. Isn’t that… a different movie entirely? Great, now the eagles are wearing Star Wars helmets, and I’m visualizing Darth’s Tie Advanced as having a giant eye for a cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/50 "2005-01-05T15:40:17Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t think he is. With possession of the Ring, he would have made Middle Earth the largest arboreum in the universe. No, the only possibilities come down to two creatures: Frodo, and Bill the Pony. WHEEE-HEEE-HEEE-HEEE! I AM WILLIAM~ PONY LORD OF ALL MIDDLE EARTH!!! ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/51 "2005-01-05T15:45:37Z")
John Elway. Because, as we all know, Eru or the Valar could’ve stomped down Sauron in no time if they actually wanted to, and John Elway is, as all true Broncos fans know, God (among other things.) ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/52 "2005-01-05T16:33:56Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t think he is. With possession of the Ring, he would have made Middle Earth the largest arboreum in the universe. No, the only possibilities come down to two creatures: Frodo, and Bill the Pony. I never thought of that angle. Would Bill have even been tempted, as he has no fingers, so cannot even wear the Ring? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/53 "2005-01-05T16:44:12Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > Would Bill have even been tempted, as he has no fingers, so cannot even wear the Ring? “Though he had found out that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it once had been tight.” – FOTR, The Shadow of the Past. The ring would expand in size to be a horse-collar, and Bill could nudge his head into it and rule all of Middle-Earth, demanding apples, carrots, and sugar cubes from all and sundry. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/54 "2005-01-05T18:34:41Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Great, now I see Frodo as a pint-sized Slim Pickens. Waaa-Hooooo! Waaaaa-Hoooooo! (In Elvish, of course!) ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/55 "2005-01-05T21:01:42Z")
Another point about the eagles and one which bothered me a bit in the movie. I just couldn’t see the eagles winning a fight against any of the fell beasts. If Sauron saw that any of the eagles had it, it would be too easy, in my opinion, for one of the Nazgul to easily take him down. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/56 "2005-01-06T00:45:14Z")
As long as we’re considering Tom Bombadil, how about Goldberry? Of course, objections are the same as Tom: she would not go, and anyone so powerful could not get withtin 100 leagues or Mordor without something evil and icky noticing and telling Sauron all about it. But . . . if she somehow got there, she could do it, don’t you think? We don’t have direct evidence that she is as immune as TB, but it seems like a reasonable possibility. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/57 "2005-01-06T03:29:38Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Okay, so “immediately” was a poor choice of words. But everything else I stand by. If you change the word “immediately”, you’re left with the idea that he would have succumbed eventually. Well, so would everyone, including Gandalf. As to whether Sam would have succumbed sooner than anyone else, I don’t think you have justified that. > [@](#): > > I’ll also mention that without Sam’s constant torture of Gollum, the incident with Shelob never would have happened. Letter 246 says that would not have happened if Sam had not reacted suspiciously at one crucial moment, regardless of his previous behavior. > [@](#): > > Sam only spared Gollum because his master commanded him not to. Sam was arrogant and selfish the rest of the time where Gollum was concerned. I think the letter says it was Sam’s “devotion” to Frodo that prompted his behavior to Gollum. Tolkien does not mention selfishness and arrogance there. > [@](#): > > What element of mercy did Samwise offer to receive it? What aspect of Sam was worthy of absolute pity? Of \*course \* Gollum received grace - look at what he overcame! I think Tolkien would say grace is not earned. It is given - to everyone. Gollum’s came through Frodo’s pity and understanding. > [@](#): > > Centuries of misery and unending pain. Absolute rejection by all he used to hold dear. And then after finally encountering someone willing to befriend him, willing to lift him out of that despair, he’s shoved back down by someone who’s jealous of that mercy, simply because he’s not willing to share his own friendship with Frodo. Sam exhibits the emotional maturity of a 2nd grader in this regard. Gollum _killed_ Deagol to get the Ring, then used it for the smallest, meanest purposes. He was rejected by his friends and family because of this. One even might go so far as to say he ultimately chose most of his suffering (excluding actual torture by Sauron). And about Sam’s “jealously” and immaturity: that may be present, but I personally can’t see it. I put it down to his single-mindedness. > [@](#): > > Gollum’s grace was a result of bearing a terrible burden - Sam never bore such. No. As above, grace is not earned, it is given. > [@Munch](#): > > > [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > > > As Tolkien said, the overriding theme of LOTR is the importance of ordinary, flawed people, Sam being one of them. > > I don’t believe the linked letter suggests that is the overriding theme at all. I didn’t say it came from there. I thought that letter was very important the first time I read it years ago in _Letters_, and I think I was the first one to post that link on the board. Having said that, right now I can’t find where Tolkien said that was the _overriding_ theme, or even if he said exactly that. I am sure it’s a major theme, as well as The Evil of The Machine and the obvious themes of Power and Good vs. Evil. But I do have a clip from an interview where Tolkien says the “wisest remark in the whole book” was this excerpt near the end of “The Council of Elrond”: “Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere”. > [@](#): > > And again, I’m not absolutely condemning Samwise - just cutting him down to a more appropriate level. I think the letter treats Sam appropriately, honestly and frankly. But I think you took it much further. I’ve come this far, I might as well add one last thing. You quoted Tolkien’s description of Sam from the letter: > [@](#): > > that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity - by which I do not mean a mere ‘down-to-earthiness’ - a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional ‘wisdom’. I am still puzzled by your strong reaction. I may be talking through my ass here, and if I am, say so and I’ll apologize. It’s occurred to me that this description somewhat matches one political side’s perception of a particular figure on the other. Would that have anything to do with your reaction? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/58 "2005-01-06T14:59:44Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > If you change the word “immediately”, you’re left with the idea that he would have succumbed eventually. Well, so would everyone, including Gandalf. As to whether Sam would have succumbed sooner than anyone else, I don’t think you have justified that. I don’t think I tried to imply that Sam would have succumbed sooner than anyone. Hobbits by their nature are going to be the last to succumb, outlasting folks like Aragorn, Faramir and Gandalf (all of whom would have done so immediately). > [@](#): > > Letter 246 says that would not have happened if Sam had not reacted suspiciously at one crucial moment, regardless of his previous behavior. Incorrect. The entire paragraph here: > [@](#): > > Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable - except in his service and loyalty to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt. He plainly did not fully understand Frodo’s motives or his distress in the incident of the Forbidden Pool. If he had understood better what was going between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum’s tone and aspect. ‘Nothing, nothing’, said Gollum softly. ‘Nice master!’. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo’s pity is (in a sense\*) wasted. Shelob’s fair became inevitable. Yes, the incident at the Forbidden Pool is mentioned, but it’s a small element in Sam’s ignorance of Frodo’s capacity for compassion towards Gollum. The “one incident” you refer to is what Tolkien considers the “most tragic moment” - not the “only tragic moment”. > [@](#): > > I think the letter says it was Sam’s “devotion” to Frodo that prompted his behavior to Gollum. Tolkien does not mention selfishness and arrogance there. Incorrect. Again in the above-quoted paragraph, the word “devotion” is accompanied in the same sentence with the words “pride” and “possessiveness” - all referring to Sam (and other hobbits). I don’t think “arrogant” and “selfish” are far variations on those terms. > [@](#): > > I think Tolkien would say grace is not earned. It is given - to everyone. Gollum’s came through Frodo’s pity and understanding. Again, incorrect. From the letter: > [@](#): > > Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and **his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed** > [@](#): > > Gollum _killed_ Deagol to get the Ring, then used it for the smallest, meanest purposes. He was rejected by his friends and family because of this. One even might go so far as to say he ultimately chose most of his suffering (excluding actual torture by Sauron). Yes, and? Purgatory sucks and is well-earned for all of us. But the point of it is redemption and forgiveness. Frodo was capable of that, Sam was not. > [@](#): > > And about Sam’s “jealously” and immaturity: that may be present, but I personally can’t see it. I put it down to his single-mindedness. That’s fine if you don’t see it. It might be a bit of projection on my part, clouded by the the variations in the movies. > [@](#): > > I think the letter treats Sam appropriately, honestly and frankly. But I think you took it much further. Absolutely. I think that’s more a product of the constant Sam-loving on the SDMB, that I think is a bit over the top. Tolkien wrote him as loveable, and says as much in that letter. But he also infuriates through his various (necessary) flaws. > [@](#): > > I’ve come this far, I might as well add one last thing. You quoted Tolkien’s description of Sam from the letter:I am still puzzled by your strong reaction. I may be talking through my ass here, and if I am, say so and I’ll apologize. It’s occurred to me that this description somewhat matches one political side’s perception of a particular figure on the other. Would that have anything to do with your reaction? Hilarious! And it’s hilarious because you’re completely right - I was going to comment on such a similarity, but decided against it. But just to clear that up, I didn’t notice the connection until after I composed most of my post, so what I’ve written isn’t colored by such a lens. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/59 "2005-01-06T15:37:00Z")
The people who gave rings away: Celembrimbor, Cirdan, Bilbo and Sam. Another point to remember is that it was mentioned the ring became more ominous, and possibly more influential, closer to Mt Doom. Another possibility, someone less ‘human’ – would Treebeard be affected? A trained mouse? Re: another volcano. I get the impression that it’s one of the many magic/metaphor blurrings in Tolkien’s work. The ‘mundane’ explanation is that there was only one volcano, but that ties in to the mystical ‘fires that made it’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032/60 "2005-01-06T16:12:34Z")
Not completely true. We know that Thror passed his ring (given to the dwarves by Sauron) to his son Thrain in the 3rd age. Ok, perhaps Thrain picked it up once dear old dad passed on. Regardless, Gil-galad owned 2 rings of power in the Second age. He passed Narya to Cirdan and Vilya to Elrond. It would seem that the three great elven rings lack the possessive will that inhabits the others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disposing-of-the-ring-here-there-will-be-spoilers/283032.md?page=4)