# Disprove solipsism. Please. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825 "2010-04-21T03:40:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/61 "2010-04-23T04:26:54Z")
A more important point is that the existence of a mathematical reality independent of subjective perception is **not** inconsistent with solipsism. The existence of a **physical** reality independent of perception is inconsistent with solipsism; but mathematical logic is what it is. If it transcends cultural reality, and it does, why can’t it transcend any other kind of reality? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/62 "2010-04-23T04:30:29Z")
Well, it sounded more clever in my head. …wait a tick… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/63 "2010-04-23T04:36:09Z")
Put another way: If the solipsist theory is correct, I am for all intents and purposes God. But, as St. Augustine acknowledged, not even an omnipotent God can force two and two to make five, or divide something into three equal halves. (Augustine emphasized that it is a sin, we would now say a mistake, to believe God is any the less omnipotent just because He cannot do **logically** impossible things.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/64 "2010-04-23T04:39:24Z")
Yeah, but Augustine was a dork who is first on my list of historical figures to eliminate as soon as time travel becomes feasible. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/65 "2010-04-23T14:38:55Z")
Aaaaand…it took me this long to understand why someone might confuse solipsism with pantheism. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/66 "2010-04-23T17:37:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If solipsism is true, concepts like pleasure and pain are meaningless. If I’m the only being in existence and I enjoy the experience of sticking needles in my eyes, then by definition it’s a universally pleasurable experience. What? No. Where are you getting this from? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If solipsism is true and I am the sole creator of everything that exists, then everything I experience exists because I made it so. It’s impossible for me to claim I didn’t want something to happen because everything is a result of me making it happen. And everything that doesn’t happen is the result of me not making it happen. So in a solipsist universe, everything is exactly the way I will it to be. I’ve had dreams where I couldn’t control the events that were (seemingly) occuring. Does this mean that when I dream I tap into an objective reality that exists outside my head? Because if so, it’s a pretty weird place, where a lot of fictional stuff from pop culture has developed objective reality. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So why doesn’t it feel that way? Why do I feel that there are things I want that I don’t have or that I have things I don’t want? A solipsist universe, created solely by me, should be in exact congruence with my desires. > > One possible explanation is that I have a subconscious that has different desires than my conscious. But how can that fit into a solipsist existence? If the subconscious part of my mind is thinking independantly from the conscious part of my mind, then how can it be a solipsist universe? There are now two distinct entities that are creating it. Solipsism relies pretty heavily on the assumption that there are aspects of our mind out of our control, yes - but this isn’t percieved as contradicting the model or implying two separate entities. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/67 "2010-04-24T01:40:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Solipsism relies pretty heavily on the assumption that there are aspects of our mind out of our control, yes - but this isn’t percieved as contradicting the model or implying two separate entities. My conscious mind wants Jessica Alba to be performing oral sex on me as I write this post. Regrettably, that’s not happening. So my conscious mind clearly isn’t calling all the shots. Now is it my subconscious mind that is thwarting me or is it Jessica Alba’s conscious mind that is thwarting me? From the point of view of my conscious mind, there’s no discernable difference - the desires of my conscious mind are being thwarted by something which is beyond my control or ability to communicate. So, how can you reconcile the concept of solipsism with the fact that something else exists which can discernably affect me and which I have no control over? If that something else exists, then I’m not alone. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/68 "2010-04-24T04:06:49Z")
I’m just imagining this thread, hmm? I’m playing both sides of the game, imagining these sophisticated arguments that I made up in my own mind, nevertheless not entirely understanding or appreciating all of them. All the pain I’ve ever endured - some entirely pointless - and all the joy, and all of the wonders I’ve seen, all of the surprises, all of the confusion that was later resolved, and all of that which I thought I knew, and found out later that I didn’t know at all - all of this is stuff I’ve imagined myself. Is that right? I say no. I’ve got my share of crazy, but I ain’t that nuts. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/69 "2010-04-24T04:22:15Z")
One disproof of solipsism, [comin’ up.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12373373&postcount=22) Now that we’ve got that out of the way, who’s up for sushi? ETA: on reading **Little Nemo** ’s post above\*, I find myself wondering if it’s too late to trade in my rice cooker for Jessica Alba blowjobs. \*That Slumberland must be quite a place… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/70 "2010-04-29T21:10:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My conscious mind wants Jessica Alba to be performing oral sex on me as I write this post. Regrettably, that’s not happening. > > So my conscious mind clearly isn’t calling all the shots. Now is it my subconscious mind that is thwarting me or is it Jessica Alba’s conscious mind that is thwarting me? From the point of view of my conscious mind, there’s no discernable difference - the desires of my conscious mind are being thwarted by something which is beyond my control or ability to communicate. > > So, how can you reconcile the concept of solipsism with the fact that something else exists which can discernably affect me and which I have no control over? If that something else exists, then I’m not alone. Sorry for the delay in replying - my method of reconciliation is to simply declare that the existence of a subconscious mind that’s not under your control isn’t a problem for the model. Poof - problem solved. Rice cookers and blow jobs and all. Seriously - I’ve had dreams where I wasn’t calling all the shots. So either those dreams were actually real and I teleported to other realities (and sometimes other bodies) while I slept, or it’s possible to have a non-lucid dream. And if it’s possible to have non-lucid dreams, it’s theoretically possible that all of reality as we know it is one. Sure, given it’s duration and apparant internal consistency it’s very _unlikely_ to be a dream, but it’s still theoretically _possible_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/71 "2010-04-30T01:22:40Z")
But solipsism is the belief that everything exists within one single mind - everything you experience is of your own creation. The fact that I have a conscious mind and a subconscious mind means that I don’t have one single mind. This invalidates the model because it says the conditions the model requires to be even theoretically possible don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/72 "2010-04-30T04:37:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > [E]verything you experience is of your own creation. Actually, that’s not solipsism. (At least not as I understand it.) Solipsism teaches that nothing is created or willed into being… that which is, well, simply is. Volition, the possibility of any change, time, or motion are illusions. Solipsism in its most consistent view renders the universe fixed or static. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/73 "2010-04-30T06:02:53Z")
Thus I refute solipsism! [_Kicks rock_](http://www.samueljohnson.com/refutati.html) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/74 "2010-04-30T18:12:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But solipsism is the belief that everything exists within one single mind - everything you experience is of your own creation. The fact that I have a conscious mind and a subconscious mind means that I don’t have one single mind. This invalidates the model because it says the conditions the model requires to be even theoretically possible don’t exist. I doubt that any solipsist (or person seriously entertaining the idea) is unaware of the subconscious mind, and I find it impossible to believe that they would propose a model that explicitly doesn’t account for it. Which is to say, I think your definition of solipsism here is a strawman. Actual solipsism **clearly** does not suppose that our conscious mind is consciously going through a conscious effort to consciously invent and mentally (and, dare I say, consciously) simluate the entire world for itself to then experience. That’s absurd - clearly the world is supposed to be a dream, created and managed by our subconcsious, just like all the other dreams you have where you don’t get blowjobs and the rocks bounce you back when you kick them. (And yes, I’ve had dreams where the rocks bounce me back. Hasn’t everyone?) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/75 "2010-05-01T02:11:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I doubt that any solipsist (or person seriously entertaining the idea) is unaware of the subconscious mind, and I find it impossible to believe that they would propose a model that explicitly doesn’t account for it. That’s an unsafe assumption. The theory of solipsism has been around for a couple of thousand years. The idea of the subconscious mind is much more recent. Throughout most of the history of epistemology (and in this case ontology as well) it was assumed that the conscious mind was all there was. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825/76 "2010-05-03T16:32:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s an unsafe assumption. The theory of solipsism has been around for a couple of thousand years. The idea of the subconscious mind is much more recent. Throughout most of the history of epistemology (and in this case ontology as well) it was assumed that the conscious mind was all there was. But they were aware of dreams, yes? They may not have articulated what a conscious mind _was_, but they were certainly aware that on many a night they found themselves wandering around in an alternate reality. Any theory of the nature of reality would have to take this into account, either by stating that dreams _did_ take place in a literal alternate reality, or that the human mind was capable of conjuring up realms that had no actual existence. From the second theory it is a short step to theorizing that all of reality is the Red King’s dream, or your own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disprove-solipsism-please/536825.md?page=3)