A more important point is that the existence of a mathematical reality independent of subjective perception is not inconsistent with solipsism. The existence of a physical reality independent of perception is inconsistent with solipsism; but mathematical logic is what it is. If it transcends cultural reality, and it does, why can’t it transcend any other kind of reality?
Well, it sounded more clever in my head.
…wait a tick…
Put another way: If the solipsist theory is correct, I am for all intents and purposes God. But, as St. Augustine acknowledged, not even an omnipotent God can force two and two to make five, or divide something into three equal halves. (Augustine emphasized that it is a sin, we would now say a mistake, to believe God is any the less omnipotent just because He cannot do logically impossible things.)
Yeah, but Augustine was a dork who is first on my list of historical figures to eliminate as soon as time travel becomes feasible.
Aaaaand…it took me this long to understand why someone might confuse solipsism with pantheism. Sigh.
What? No. Where are you getting this from?
I’ve had dreams where I couldn’t control the events that were (seemingly) occuring. Does this mean that when I dream I tap into an objective reality that exists outside my head?
Because if so, it’s a pretty weird place, where a lot of fictional stuff from pop culture has developed objective reality.
Solipsism relies pretty heavily on the assumption that there are aspects of our mind out of our control, yes - but this isn’t percieved as contradicting the model or implying two separate entities.
My conscious mind wants Jessica Alba to be performing oral sex on me as I write this post. Regrettably, that’s not happening.
So my conscious mind clearly isn’t calling all the shots. Now is it my subconscious mind that is thwarting me or is it Jessica Alba’s conscious mind that is thwarting me? From the point of view of my conscious mind, there’s no discernable difference - the desires of my conscious mind are being thwarted by something which is beyond my control or ability to communicate.
So, how can you reconcile the concept of solipsism with the fact that something else exists which can discernably affect me and which I have no control over? If that something else exists, then I’m not alone.
I’m just imagining this thread, hmm? I’m playing both sides of the game, imagining these sophisticated arguments that I made up in my own mind, nevertheless not entirely understanding or appreciating all of them. All the pain I’ve ever endured - some entirely pointless - and all the joy, and all of the wonders I’ve seen, all of the surprises, all of the confusion that was later resolved, and all of that which I thought I knew, and found out later that I didn’t know at all - all of this is stuff I’ve imagined myself. Is that right?
I say no. I’ve got my share of crazy, but I ain’t that nuts.
One disproof of solipsism, comin’ up.
Now that we’ve got that out of the way, who’s up for sushi?
ETA: on reading Little Nemo’s post above*, I find myself wondering if it’s too late to trade in my rice cooker for Jessica Alba blowjobs.
*That Slumberland must be quite a place…
Sorry for the delay in replying - my method of reconciliation is to simply declare that the existence of a subconscious mind that’s not under your control isn’t a problem for the model. Poof - problem solved. Rice cookers and blow jobs and all.
Seriously - I’ve had dreams where I wasn’t calling all the shots. So either those dreams were actually real and I teleported to other realities (and sometimes other bodies) while I slept, or it’s possible to have a non-lucid dream. And if it’s possible to have non-lucid dreams, it’s theoretically possible that all of reality as we know it is one. Sure, given it’s duration and apparant internal consistency it’s very unlikely to be a dream, but it’s still theoretically possible.
But solipsism is the belief that everything exists within one single mind - everything you experience is of your own creation. The fact that I have a conscious mind and a subconscious mind means that I don’t have one single mind. This invalidates the model because it says the conditions the model requires to be even theoretically possible don’t exist.
Actually, that’s not solipsism. (At least not as I understand it.) Solipsism teaches that nothing is created or willed into being… that which is, well, simply is. Volition, the possibility of any change, time, or motion are illusions. Solipsism in its most consistent view renders the universe fixed or static.
Thus I refute solipsism! Kicks rock
I doubt that any solipsist (or person seriously entertaining the idea) is unaware of the subconscious mind, and I find it impossible to believe that they would propose a model that explicitly doesn’t account for it. Which is to say, I think your definition of solipsism here is a strawman. Actual solipsism clearly does not suppose that our conscious mind is consciously going through a conscious effort to consciously invent and mentally (and, dare I say, consciously) simluate the entire world for itself to then experience. That’s absurd - clearly the world is supposed to be a dream, created and managed by our subconcsious, just like all the other dreams you have where you don’t get blowjobs and the rocks bounce you back when you kick them. (And yes, I’ve had dreams where the rocks bounce me back. Hasn’t everyone?)
That’s an unsafe assumption. The theory of solipsism has been around for a couple of thousand years. The idea of the subconscious mind is much more recent. Throughout most of the history of epistemology (and in this case ontology as well) it was assumed that the conscious mind was all there was.
But they were aware of dreams, yes? They may not have articulated what a conscious mind was, but they were certainly aware that on many a night they found themselves wandering around in an alternate reality. Any theory of the nature of reality would have to take this into account, either by stating that dreams did take place in a literal alternate reality, or that the human mind was capable of conjuring up realms that had no actual existence. From the second theory it is a short step to theorizing that all of reality is the Red King’s dream, or your own.