# Disproving Islam - challenge is set **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478 "2008-12-03T06:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/21 "2008-12-03T14:56:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Islam claim to be descendants of Abraham through Ishmael, which is of the slave woman, and the descendants are under servitude to Allah. Jewish claims to be descendants through Isaac, the free woman and are eventually free under Christ. I know this means something to you, but to me it’s gibberish. Why does it matter which one was born of the slave and which was born of the free woman? What difference does that make several thousand years later? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/22 "2008-12-03T14:58:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do people of a religious persuasion believe that their thoughts and actions somehow transmutate their physical being at death, in a way that is unavailable to non-believers? This body is just a shell (or tent), I believe it is possible that God will erase the memory of the pain we have experienced here for the believer and give us a glorified body and the life He always intended us to have, which would be eternal. The non-believer, anyone condemned to Hell, outer darkness and/or the lake of fire I would assume would retain some sort of imperishable body of death and remember the life they chose instead of the new one God wants for them. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/23 "2008-12-03T15:01:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The starting premise is absurd. Allah, who claims to have created all things and claims to controls everything with all power and knowledge is so incompetent he can’t even make man to preserve his word and has to send a revision. > > Compare this to God, where His people come back from captivity and even though the city and temple is destroyed they find a copy of the Word, preserved by God. > > Compare the forced worship Allah demands, compared to the free will worship of followers of Jesus. > > Compare the intimate relationship that Jesus desires but does not force, compared to the distant relationship that Allah demands. > > Compare the absolute promise of the Lord Jesus of salvation compared to the works requires that Allah demands that may or may not get you into heaven. > > Also compare the story of Adam and Eve. The Word of God states that Eve was deceived and fell, Adam however was not deceived, therefor willingly accepted death (to be with Eve, who he loved). This foreshadows us the church being deceived into sinning, having absolutely no way to correct for it, and Jesus willingly accepting death to pay and rejoin us to Him. The Koran states that it was equal decision between Adam and Eve, maintaining much of the story line but altering just enough to remove the foreshadow of Christ. > > As for supernatural poetry, demons and Satan himself are supernatural beings capable of it. Note: “therefore” and “therefor” are two different words. Regardless of how Islam compares to other religions based on desert tribal myths – what do you think about the difficulty of producing Quran-style verses? (What I get from it is that Muhammed was a poetic genius. If only he’d been a secularist as well.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/24 "2008-12-03T15:02:42Z")
Disprove? What happened to _prove_? It’s all feel-good, baseless, wishful thinking unless it can withstand the same level of scientific rigor we demand of other aspects of society. If you want to apply some personal value to it, have at it. If not, you’re free to walk away from it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/25 "2008-12-03T15:05:03Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] what do you think about the difficulty of producing Quran-style verses? [/QUOTE] The Quran is a work of Satan, a being that existed at least back before the fall of man and having a army of angels. I’m sure he could come up with verses that would make Shakespeare appear like a 3rd grader. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/26 "2008-12-03T15:08:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Quran is a work of Satan, a being that existed at least back before the fall of man and having a army of angels. I’m sure he could come up with verses that would make Shakespeare appear like a 3rd grader. The Qu’ran is the work of men, as is the Bible. Whether either one of them was “inspired” by a supernatural being of whatever alignment (lawful good? chaotic evil?) is something that cannot be proven. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/27 "2008-12-03T15:12:24Z")
Given that its author Mohammed was such a certifiable psychotic, it’s hard to imagine taking this Qu’aranic challenge seriously. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/28 "2008-12-03T15:14:15Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Given that its author Mohammed was such a certifiable psychotic, it’s hard to imagine taking this Qu’aranic challenge seriously. How is Mohammed any more psychotic than men who planned to kill their children because God said to? Or men who committed genocide against entire peoples because God said to? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/29 "2008-12-03T15:14:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Quran is a work of Satan, a being that existed at least back before the fall of man and having a army of angels. I’m sure he could come up with verses that would make Shakespeare appear like a 3rd grader. Then you’d think he’d play the fiddle at least as well as a deaf monkey. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/30 "2008-12-03T15:17:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > How is Mohammed any more psychotic than men who planned to kill their children because God said to? Or men who committed genocide against entire peoples because God said to? Exactly. But the existence of other psychotics is not an argument to take him seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/31 "2008-12-03T15:21:53Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Learn Arabic & get back to us. Why? I already linked to one example which appears to fulfill the requirements. One is all that is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/32 "2008-12-03T15:28:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also compare the story of Adam and Eve. The Word of God states that Eve was deceived and fell, Wait a minute, how was Eve deceived? I just read through it again, and I can’t find the part where the snake lied. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/33 "2008-12-03T15:35:32Z")
I am sorry to see this thread moved to GD and already derailed into the usual pacifier fight. I think the GQ was a valid and interesting one. Group X has issued a challenge. Has this challenge been met? Yes or No. In case the answer is No, the obvious question is “Has anyone tried?”. If yes to that last one, why did it fail? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/34 "2008-12-03T15:35:33Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Then you’d think he’d play the fiddle at least as well as a deaf monkey. Ask Granny if her dog bites. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/35 "2008-12-03T15:40:49Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Exactly. But the existence of other psychotics is not an argument to take him seriously. Sorry…I dragged your post into the mini-scuffle with **kanicbird** by mistake. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/36 "2008-12-03T15:47:11Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > what do you think about the difficulty of producing Quran-style verses? > [@kanicbird](#): > > The Quran is a work of Satan, a being that existed at least back before the fall of man and having a army of angels. I’m sure he could come up with verses that would make Shakespeare appear like a 3rd grader. So, you don’t actually think about it; you just respond with a competing myth. Thanks. I’d also like to see a factual answer; has anybody met the challenge? I’d like to see a surah be presented and judged by a secular Arabic scholar, not somebody blinded by religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/37 "2008-12-03T15:56:35Z")
[Sina’s Challenge](http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm) Prove he is wrong about Muhammed and win $50,000. ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/38 "2008-12-03T15:59:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Are you people still working off the false notion that Allah is a different person than the Jewish/Christian God, despite all of the textual similarities between the Qu’ran and the Old Testament? Even from an agnostic standpoint, it’s fairly obvious that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Allah of Muhammad. I take this to mean that you actually think the prophet borrowed from the Old Testament? Which is a reasonable thought. and to Eve being deceived Genesis 3:4 "But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.” Just because the death was not immediate does not mean this was not a lie. Eve would of lived for ever had she never eaten of the tree. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/39 "2008-12-03T16:01:20Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I take this to mean that you actually think the prophet borrowed from the Old Testament? Which is a reasonable thought. More or less, yes. It seems obvious that Mohammed (or whoever actually wrote the Qu’ran) built on the Jewish scriptures. There are situations and names that are basically identical in both. The author also borrowed from the New Testament, as Isa (Jesus) is mentioned and revered as the penultimate prophet. To me, as someone who basically doesn’t believe in any of the three Abrahamic faiths, saying that “Allah is the same as Abraham’s God” means that Mohammed intended for Allah to be seen as the same God that guided the Hebrews in the desert. It doesn’t mean I think that entity actually exists, just that it’s obviously intended to be the same entity. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/40 "2008-12-03T16:01:43Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t get it. What does anything the OP has written have to do with “disproving” Islam? I swear, the whole notion of proof has shot the wad. It used to be that to prove something, you needed inferences that followed from premises in accordance with rules of the system. Nowadays, all you seem to need is a worshipful reference to some caricature of science and a steadfast determination to believe nothing except optical illusions and fanciful musings that you don’t even comprehend. The problem is that you’re conflating two meanings of the word proof. You’re using proof in the formal logical sense. But there’s another more general sense which means “Show me enough evidence to convince me.” People have been using the word prove in that sense probably since Ogg accused Ugg of stealing his rabbit pelt. Courts use proove in this sense all the time, as in “prove beyond a reasonable doubt,” i.e. show enough evidence to convince the jury that the defendant must be guilty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478.md?page=3)