# Disproving Islam - challenge is set **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478 "2008-12-03T06:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/41 "2008-12-03T16:03:17Z")
- Nor like the speech of soothsayers - Possibly subjective **CalD** … \*possibly \*subjective? The qualifier is unnecessary. That being the case, this is a challenge that cannot be met because there is no objective way to prove whether certain verses are ‘like’ the speech of soothsayers. The way to “win” the challenge is to point out that by definition the Qu’ran itself does not meet the challenge, since none of the speech in the Qu’ran is like the speech of the Witch of Endor, or Kreskin, or whomever you’d like to assign. And **kanicbird** … just for my own curiosity… have you ever discussed your views on Islam with a devout Muslim? I think that if you found someone as devoted to his/her scripture as you have to yours, you’d have some very interesting conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/42 "2008-12-03T16:07:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Satan, a being that existed at least back before the fall of man and having a army of angels This, incidentally, is entirely non-Biblical. It’s largely the invention of a 17th-century human writer. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/43 "2008-12-03T16:23:58Z")
Shakespear is widely regarded as being the ultimate English writer. Many people believe no one else comes close. Same (IIRC) for Goethe in German. Were Shaekspear and Goethe taking dication from God? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/44 "2008-12-03T16:33:09Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This, incidentally, is entirely non-Biblical. It’s largely the invention of a 17th-century human writer. This the sort of thing that completely turns me off Christianity (I was brought up a Catholic). So much seems to have been read into the occasional word in the bible. I had a browse of the Rapture Ready forum once, out of curiosity, and my interest was raised by people moaning about Catholicism for adding non-scriptural things to the faith. From my point of view the Rapture and just about everything regarding “End Times” has next to no basis in scripture, yet they consider it so important that it is incorporated into the forum’s name. The concept of THE Antichrist, especially as Satan, is only ever mentioned in letters and only one of the Gospels yet has been built up into such a huge concept. He doesn’t even get to appear in Revelations. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/45 "2008-12-03T17:33:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > More or less, yes. It seems obvious that Mohammed (or whoever actually wrote the Qu’ran) built on the Jewish scriptures. There are situations and names that are basically identical in both. The author also borrowed from the New Testament, as Isa (Jesus) is mentioned and revered as the penultimate prophet. To me, as someone who basically doesn’t believe in any of the three Abrahamic faiths, saying that “Allah is the same as Abraham’s God” means that Mohammed intended for Allah to be seen as the same God that guided the Hebrews in the desert. It doesn’t mean I think that entity actually exists, just that it’s obviously intended to be the same entity. So… Mohammed wrote fanfic? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/46 "2008-12-03T17:40:31Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The problem is that you’re conflating two meanings of the word proof. You’re using proof in the formal logical sense. But there’s another more general sense which means “Show me enough evidence to convince me.” People have been using the word prove in that sense probably since Ogg accused Ugg of stealing his rabbit pelt. Courts use proove in this sense all the time, as in “prove beyond a reasonable doubt,” i.e. show enough evidence to convince the jury that the defendant must be guilty. I understand your point. However, that’s what phrases are for. “Prove beyond a reasonable doubt” clears up what one means. And in this particular instance, the OP is making the case that Islam can be effectively refuted by some whimsical challenge. Solve the riddle, and poof. He isn’t saying anything about doubt, as I understand him. In fact, the opposite. He’s saying something about certainty — certainty that Islam can be disproved. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/47 "2008-12-03T17:43:43Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > More or less, yes. It seems obvious that Mohammed (or whoever actually wrote the Qu’ran) built on the Jewish scriptures. There are situations and names that are basically identical in both. The Qu’ran was, according towikipedia, written after Mohammed’s death by his companions- it should be more fair to say that both jewish and muslim traditions come from the same sources, the same semitic traditional tales. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/48 "2008-12-03T17:54:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Compare the forced worship Allah demands, compared to the free will worship of followers of Jesus. People who think Christianity does not have a history of forced conversion are simply poor students of history. People who argue that “well, we used to do that but we know better now” are going to have a hard time making their case that the immutable Word of God has guided the church since the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/49 "2008-12-03T17:56:58Z")
Well, in fairness, there can be an excellent guide while at the same time there is a lousy ass follower. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/50 "2008-12-03T18:01:14Z")
Quick spelling note: the apostrophe in Qur’an falls AFTER the “r”. (If you’re not sure, just leave the damn thing out.) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/51 "2008-12-03T18:02:48Z")
Christian bible scholars seem to have no problem in analyzing and criticizing the Bible. Both protestant and catholic scholors are constanly studying and revising their positions on these texts-does islam allow this? I can’t see anyboy getting away with ANY criticism of the Koran-you ight wind up like Solman Rushdie. So, is there any freedon to discuss the Koran? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/52 "2008-12-03T18:07:19Z")
> [@](#): > > and to Eve being deceived Genesis 3:4 "But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.” Just because the death was not immediate does not mean this was not a lie. Eve would of lived for ever had she never eaten of the tree. Actually all this does is show that Eve was deceived, but it was God that did the deceiving, not the serpent. God said Eve would die on the day she ate the fruit. This is what the serpent was contradicting when he told Eve she would not die, and the serpent was right. Not to mention that Adam and Eve were set up, since they didn’t know the difference between good and evil and therefore lacked the ability to comprehend what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/53 "2008-12-03T18:13:37Z")
Oh, come on. The Koran is clearly the brain-damaged musings of a despotic warlord. No one who buys into it is going to be convinced by any rational proof. Taking it seriously is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/54 "2008-12-03T18:41:56Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > People who think Christianity does not have a history of forced conversion are simply poor students of history. People who argue that “well, we used to do that but we know better now” are going to have a hard time making their case that the immutable Word of God has guided the church since the beginning. I’m not saying that Christianity does not have corruption within itself, but the Word does not agree with those practices. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/55 "2008-12-03T18:45:30Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Actually all this does is show that Eve was deceived, but it was God that did the deceiving, not the serpent. God said Eve would die on the day she ate the fruit. This is what the serpent was contradicting when he told Eve she would not die, and the serpent was right. [QUOTE=1 Timothy 2:14] And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Not to mention that Adam and Eve were set up, since they didn’t know the difference between good and evil and therefore lacked the ability to comprehend what they were doing. Adam and Eve were made to be dependent on God, they could not know. Later the man obtained the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:22) and has become like God. So, I agree, yes they were set up. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/56 "2008-12-03T18:46:52Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Shakespear is widely regarded as being the ultimate English writer. Many people believe no one else comes close. Same (IIRC) for Goethe in German. Were Shaekspear and Goethe taking dication from God? I don’t know, many of his lines seemed to be inspired, but not to the point of scripture. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/57 "2008-12-03T18:51:21Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This, incidentally, is entirely non-Biblical. It’s largely the invention of a 17th-century human writer. Re: my post: [QUOTE=kanicbird] Satan, a being that existed at least back before the fall of man and having a army of angels [/QUOTE] [QUOTE= Revelation 12:9] The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. [/QUOTE] So here we have Satan ID’ed as the ancient serpent, who leads the wole world astray, this would have to include Adam and Eve, and he is identified as having angels. Now if you want to argue that Satan’s angels do not constitute an army, I believe I can make that case also, since Satan has a kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/58 "2008-12-03T18:54:26Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > And **kanicbird** … just for my own curiosity… have you ever discussed your views on Islam with a devout Muslim? I think that if you found someone as devoted to his/her scripture as you have to yours, you’d have some very interesting conversations. Not recently, but I think I would like that opportunity depending on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/59 "2008-12-03T19:10:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Adam and Eve were made to be dependent on God, they could not know. Later the man obtained the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:22) and has become like God. So, I agree, yes they were set up. So… you worship a being who likes to glue quarters to the ground and hide around the corner waiting to jump out and laugh? Only, according to your mythology, the reason Jesus had to die was because of original sin, caused by Adam & Eve. And since original sin was a total set up, that means god wanted his own son to die? And god knew the whole time, so he set up all the suffering and death and everything else? And since Jesus _is_ god, he also knew the entire time. I’ll bet the reason god wasn’t around when Adam & Eve ate the fruit was because he was holding Jesus back, who was jumping up and down and shouting ‘Don’t eat it!’ ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/60 "2008-12-03T19:13:33Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > So… you worship a being who likes to glue quarters to the ground and hide around the corner waiting to jump out and laugh? > > Only, according to your mythology, the reason Jesus had to die was because of original sin, caused by Adam & Eve. And since original sin was a total set up, that means god wanted his own son to die? And god knew the whole time, so he set up all the suffering and death and everything else? And since Jesus _is_ god, he also knew the entire time. I’ll bet the reason god wasn’t around when Adam & Eve ate the fruit was because he was holding Jesus back, who was jumping up and down and shouting ‘Don’t eat it!’ Yeah but the whole point is that you have to have faith, meaning that you need to trust that something is true regardless of all evidence. But so if God made sense, you wouldn’t need to have faith, thus God must act irrationally. Ineffability man, it’s _ALL_ the rage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478.md?page=4)