# Disproving Islam - challenge is set **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478 "2008-12-03T06:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/61 "2008-12-03T19:17:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > allah is unquestionable a false god, a servant of satan, a attempt to deceive the people away from jesus. The similarities are intentional and a deception. God states very clearly about such deceptive efforts of satan and the dangers of adding or taking away from his word. _(Next panel)_ **“HAW HAW HAW!!”** ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/62 "2008-12-03T19:26:01Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Only, according to your mythology, the reason Jesus had to die was because of original sin, caused by Adam & Eve. And since original sin was a total set up, that means god wanted his own son to die? And god knew the whole time, so he set up all the suffering and death and everything else? And since Jesus _is_ god, he also knew the entire time. I’ll bet the reason god wasn’t around when Adam & Eve ate the fruit was because he was holding Jesus back, who was jumping up and down and shouting ‘Don’t eat it!’ This is my take on why the fall had to happen: We were made so that Lord Jesus has to Love us to the absolute max [QUOTE=John 15:13] Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. [/QUOTE] There is no greater Love then one who lays down his life for his friends, so this had to happen. God used Satan’s pride to accomplish this. Note, the scriptures say that ‘he lay down his life’, the laying down of life is mandatory, not just a willingness to do so, to achieve this level of Love. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/63 "2008-12-03T19:47:12Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Quick spelling note: the apostrophe in Qur’an falls AFTER the “r”. (If you’re not sure, just leave the damn thing out.) I think this is a good opportunity to discuss participles, taking a look at the elephant in the room — namely, your “damn thing”. Don’t you really think, in your heart of hearts, that it should be “damned thing”? I do believe there is a tiny bit of wriggle room to argue against the point, so let me just shoot straight for that. There are four tests I like to apply in determining whether a participle is an adjective. Is it attributive? Can it be compared? Can it be used in the predicate? And can “very” modify it? It’s that last test where “damned” is arguably disqualified. But I ask why. Why can’t something be “very damned”. Consider, for example, Reverend Lovejoy scolding his dog when Flanders emerges to catch it pooping on his lawn. “Bad dog!” the reverend exclaims. “Damn you to hell!” We can easily imagine the reverend going further, “You are damned! Very, very damned!” Therefore, I believe that a participle of the perfect tense is the appropriate form of adjective in this case. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/64 "2008-12-03T20:04:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is my take on why the fall had to happen: > We were made so that Lord Jesus has to Love us to the absolute max Are you saying that Jesus wouldn’t love us to the max unless we fell for god’s set up? Did he not love us to the max up until that point? Since Jesus is god, that means that god set us up so that he would love us to the max? Was god incapable of making humans that were able to loved by Jesus (ie, himself) to the max? > [@](#): > > There is no greater Love then one who lays down his life for his friends, so this had to happen. God used Satan’s pride to accomplish this. Note, the scriptures say that ‘he lay down his life’, the laying down of life is mandatory, not just a willingness to do so, to achieve this level of Love. There isn’t? Cuz I think that maybe a parent’s love for their child might be right up there. You know, without the death and all. It seems odd that god would have to involve death and suffering in this, and was incapable of making being that were good enough to be loved without death. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/65 "2008-12-03T20:11:20Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > So… Mohammed wrote fanfic? Yes, and he applied his own idiosyncratic definition of “slash.” ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/66 "2008-12-03T20:22:58Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Actually all this does is show that Eve was deceived, but it was God that did the deceiving, not the serpent. God said Eve would die on the day she ate the fruit. This is what the serpent was contradicting when he told Eve she would not die, and the serpent was right. > > Not to mention that Adam and Eve were set up, since they didn’t know the difference between good and evil and therefore lacked the ability to comprehend what they were doing. There are a lot of reasons why the first part of your comment might not be true. The word day in Hebrew is just as flexible as the word day in english, so one interpretation is that day meant period, but more likely is the fact that she began to die on the day she ate of the fruit, which is perfectly acceptable on a plain reading of the text. Which means Satan lied, because they did begin to die. Satan actually says “You will not surely die”, Eve is not still alive thus he died. “know” has the connotation of experiencing good and evil. They already knew that it was wrong for them to eat of the fruit, they freely chose to do exactly the opposite of what God had told them, and thus experience or “knew” good and evil. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/67 "2008-12-03T20:36:13Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#): > > “know” has the connotation of experiencing good and evil. They already knew that it was wrong for them to eat of the fruit, they freely chose to do exactly the opposite of what God had told them, and thus experience or “knew” good and evil. I would say they did not know it was wrong, it just not something they considered a option. I like to compare this to my niece, who I wanted to go downstairs, I said something like lets go downstairs, she said ‘no, mommy said not to’ - I found that this was a rule ‘mommy’ had for her since she started walking. Going downstairs was just not a option in her mind. She had no reason to distrust anything mommy said, and mommy (and daddy) provided all her needs, she never had a reason to look beyond anything she said, and totally trusted her. Perhaps if I would have told her I would get her a toy I could have tempted her to. I think this is just like the fruit, it just was not in their minds till the serpent talked Eve into it, and she saw the perceived benefits “when she saw…”.Before this I think there was no reason to even consider it, and she knew not of the perceived benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/68 "2008-12-03T20:43:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think this is a good opportunity to discuss participles, taking a look at the elephant in the room — namely, your “damn thing”. Don’t you really think, in your heart of hearts, that it should be “damned thing”? I do believe there is a tiny bit of wriggle room to argue against the point, so let me just shoot straight for that. > > There are four tests I like to apply in determining whether a participle is an adjective. Is it attributive? Can it be compared? Can it be used in the predicate? And can “very” modify it? It’s that last test where “damned” is arguably disqualified. But I ask why. Why can’t something be “very damned”. > > Consider, for example, Reverend Lovejoy scolding his dog when Flanders emerges to catch it pooping on his lawn. “Bad dog!” the reverend exclaims. “Damn you to hell!” We can easily imagine the reverend going further, “You are damned! Very, very damned!” > > Therefore, I believe that a participle of the perfect tense is the appropriate form of adjective in this case. You may not give a hoot in a fig tree, but this right here is why I love to read your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/69 "2008-12-03T20:50:59Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Quick spelling note: the apostrophe in Qur’an falls AFTER the “r”. (If you’re not sure, just leave the damn thing out.) Why not just stick to the old and trusted “Koran”? So much easier to spell. “Denmark” is called “Danmark” in Danish – I don’t see you making any attempt to make it the correct English spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/70 "2008-12-03T20:57:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You may not give a hoot in a fig tree, but this right here is why I love to read your posts. A hoot, hell. I’m delighted! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/71 "2008-12-03T21:07:09Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I can’t see anyboy getting away with ANY criticism of the Koran-you ight wind up like Solman Rushdie. Touring with U2? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/72 "2008-12-03T21:11:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Touring with U2? That’s why the fatwa was rescinded. The ayatollahs figured having to endure months of travel with Bono was punishment enough… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/73 "2008-12-03T22:07:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You may not give a hoot in a fig tree, but this right here is why I love to read your posts. That was quite nice, **Liberal**. I bet you scoured it for Gauderian errors before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/74 "2008-12-03T22:28:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why not just stick to the old and trusted “Koran”? So much easier to spell. “Denmark” is called “Danmark” in Danish – I don’t see you making any attempt to make it the correct English spelling. Indeed. I’m as big an Arabic snob as anyone this side of Asad AbuKhalil, and it causes me actual physical pain when someone spells “Al Qaeda” with a u after the q, but I have no problem whatsoever with “Koran” as a spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/75 "2008-12-03T22:36:07Z")
Koran it is, then. Drinks around the house! […tink…] ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/76 "2008-12-03T23:09:40Z")
Has anyone here actually tried to read the Qur’an? Admittedly I’ve read a translation and not the Arabic original, but still: it’s incredibly formulaic, repetitive and in some places vaguely stream of consciousness. Add to that the fact that Muslims claim the incomparable beauty of the Qur’an can only be understood by someone who is reading it in the original and who didn’t learn Arabic as an adult. So basically unless it was rammed down your throat throughout your entire life (i.e. you weren’t indoctrinated) you won’t find it beautiful. But it’s still incomparable in its beauty, m’kay? Why is anyone in this thread even trying to take the “Qur’anic challenge” seriously, let alone do it? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/77 "2008-12-03T23:33:47Z")
> [@CalD](#): > > There’s no “Islamic Council of Challenge Assessment”, if that’s what you mean. > > It appears as though the assessment is done as a bit of a general consensus. Or at least, it would be up to Islamic clerics to explain why a challenge has failed. But if we break the points made by Green down a bit, some of the criteria can be fairly objectively measured: > > - The challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines - **Check** > - That do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar - **Check** > - That is not rhyming prose - **Check** > - Nor like the speech of soothsayers - **Possibly subjective** > - Not normal speech - **Check.. ?** > - That it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook - **Check** How clearly and sharply-defined are those sixteen different poetic forms? Could inclusion or exclusion be accurately measured by a completely disinterested arbiter? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/78 "2008-12-04T00:18:02Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > The Qu’ran was, according towikipedia, written after Mohammed’s death by his companions- it should be more fair to say that both jewish and muslim traditions come from the same sources, the same semitic traditional tales. Muhammad recited the Qur’an over a period of twenty years. His followers wrote it down as he recited it. They wrote it on whatever surface they had available with whatever implement they had available. After his death they compiled it and decided how to organize it. While he was alive, his followers asked him lots of questions about the revelation. Some biblical elements that appear in the Koran are: Noah and the great flood, Jacob, Abraham, Moses, David, and the virgin Mary’s giving birth to Jesus. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Christian bible scholars seem to have no problem in analyzing and criticizing the Bible. Both protestant and catholic scholors are constanly studying and revising their positions on these texts-does islam allow this? > I can’t see anyboy getting away with ANY criticism of the Koran-you ight wind up like Solman Rushdie. > So, is there any freedon to discuss the Koran? There are innumerable volumes by Islamic scholars discussing the meaning of the Qur’an. You guessed wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/79 "2008-12-04T01:47:56Z")
> [@CalD](#): > > You doubt the Qu’ran is from God? Well, the challenge is to produce just 3 lines like it. “We bet you can’t, because no man is capable of matching the literary prowess of the Qu’ran. Only God himself can produce writing of this standard”. \<– That’s the claim, hence the challenge. Stipulate nobody can do it. Imagine a world without a God. In such a world, there will be one person who is worse at writing poetry than any other person in history (they probably won’t be in a vegetative state–they’ll be like Vogon bad). There will also be one person who is better at writing poetry than any other person in history. The existence of that person would not indicate that God exists. Even if the Koran is the best poetry ever written, it does not indicate that God exists. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478/80 "2008-12-04T01:56:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Koran it is, then. Drinks around the house! […tink…] Good way to lose a hand, my friend… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disproving-islam-challenge-is-set/475478.md?page=5)