# Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 25, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977 "2019-11-25T18:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/421 "2019-12-05T04:28:53Z")
Several dopers tacitly called for violence against the Covington Catholic school kid by using by using the terms “slapable” and “punchable.” Some dopers refused to condemn a comedy writer’s offer of sex for violence against the Covington kid as well. Nothing was done. Currently, in the Pit, there’s a call for George Zimmerman to be shot. Nothing has been done. Calls for violence or anything remotely condoning violence should never be acceptable anywhere on SDMB. I would love to hear the justification of allowing calls for violence against a child. Again, the liberal bias of this board shows. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/422 "2019-12-05T04:34:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I would start an ATMB thread to understand why I am wrong. The mods just tell you they don’t agree with you, and that people have a right to speak no matter the consequences. They disagree that there’s an immediate effect, though you remain sure there is… > [@](#): > > No I don’t, You’re simply wrong. Do you really need me to cite incidents of [Black](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/12/year-olds-family-says-she-hung-herself-after-racist-bullying-including-taunts-kill-yourself/)and LGBT youth committing suicide after [bullying](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_that_have_been_attributed_to_bullying)incidents to show this? > [@](#): > > and emphasis on _immediate_. What makes you think I wasn’t talking about immediate effects? > [@](#): > > Directly advocating suicide, which is harm by definition, is different than advocating for some position that is linked to harm in some statistical and societal sense. Are you so detached in affect that you don’t understand that behind “statistics” lie actual dead people? Real “harm by definition”, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/423 "2019-12-05T04:45:34Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It is also possible to be a bigot who wishes people of color would go away, yet still be against forced removal. You can’t wish for one without wishing for the other. It is literally impossible given we’re talking about human beings, not all of whom would voluntary move. And I say this as someone who is only ONE generation away from [being](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Forced_removal)[forced](https://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/photo-essay-harfield-villages-forced-removals-13279611)to move. I live with the direct violence of racist forced removals and [its effects](https://mg.co.za/article/2019-08-10-00-cape-towns-bloody-gang-violence-is-inextricably-bound-up-in-its-history) every damn day. > [@](#): > > Or to support the establishment of Native American reserves, but decry the Trail of Tears. You can’t support one without supporting the other. It is literally impossible given we’re talking about human beings, not all of whom would voluntary move. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/424 "2019-12-05T04:51:18Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > First just to Max. My post made no appeal to consequences. It was an appeal to basic decency. I addressed this point with the previous post. Your points 1-4 I agree with in their entirety, _unless the topic itself is offensive_, which was the only beef I had anyways. I’m against offensive hijacks as it is already. Scrolling past offensive posts shouldn’t be a problem, because if it isn’t a thread where calling Bernie Sanders unelectable is relevant, that comment doesn’t belong. I’ve been talking about threads such as, “Is Bernie Sanders electable?” yes, no, here’s why, here’s why not, etc. Except, you know, replace Bernie Sanders’s electability with something like “Christians: Is it moral for two men to have sex?”, or “Should a sleeper ship/underground colony include people of color?”, or “Do women deserve subsidized birth control?”, or “Should a husband have a say in his wife’s abortion?”, or “Is it fair to give grants out to minority communities?”, or “I am concerned that immigrants will destroy the culture I know and love”. The list goes on and on. Thinking about it, I am actually surprised how many controversies involve the question of whether discrimination is warranted. I don’t think I understand your final point #5, possibly because I misunderstood point #4. If there’s a thread asserting that position X is hateful, and the original poster then gets offended when people disagree, that is trolling and I agree with you. But I don’t see how “my standard” corresponds to that. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/425 "2019-12-05T04:53:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > 1. Individuals A are the presumed expert on whether or not they were offended by what individual B posted. They have ZERO expertise on whether or not individual B meant to offend or whether or not any other inference about Individual B’s thinking is valid. Which is why all that should count is the offense, not the intent behind it, as I agree that’s unknowable. Which we clearly will do for some offenses (say, “Jews are venal greedy people”) and not for others (“Transgenders aren’t really the gender they claim”). I want the second to be modded like the first. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/426 "2019-12-05T04:55:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It is optional. There is no requirement that a trans member jump into a single trans thread. They can go to any other thread, or make their own. People might ask them to join such a thread, but they are under no obligation to do so or explain why they won’t. What about when there’s a perfectly fine thread on trans issues, much good information sharing, and \*then \*someone makes a “Trans people don’t really exist” posts? Are they just supposed to \*forget \*they saw it? We’re not just discussing OPs here. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/427 "2019-12-05T04:58:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Reading your more recent comment, I would like to return to this. > > Being considerate to others sensitivities is simply the right thing to do - _to an extent_. I am not going to join you if being considerate or respectful means changing my opinion about an issue others might find offensive. Speaking my opinion? I can usually bide my tongue, for the sake of respect or friendship, unless it is my job to speak my opinion on that issue. … Changing your opinion is not the issue or the ask. Sometimes not speaking the opinion (if the opinion is something like a group is lesser or abnormal) but more often even just being mindful how an opinion is expressed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/428 "2019-12-05T04:59:10Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But ‘I sincerely want all those people to disappear, which they clearly don’t want to do, but I have no malicious intent towards them’ is the kind of statement that, if you’re present at the discussion at all, IMO really calls for pointing out the contradiction. It’s not actually a contradiction, at least not on the surface. Don’t you sincerely wish everybody would just respect women? Do you sincerely wish everybody would _just get along_? If so, surely you don’t want to _kill_ or _harm_ every person who disrespects women, do you? Do you think at least some white nationalists sincerely wish black people would _just go away_? It is not at all implied that all white nationalists want to force black people to move against their will, and it is definitely not implied that all white nationalists want to kill black people. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > (“Supporting reservations”, now that they exist, is a confusing statement. I don’t think people and communities should now be driven unwillingly off the bit of land they were allocated, even though they were unfairly driven there in the first place. But you probably didn’t mean that.) I was thinking way back when the reservations were first established. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/429 "2019-12-05T05:01:25Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Several dopers tacitly called for violence against the Covington Catholic school kid by using by using the terms “slapable” and “punchable.” Some dopers refused to condemn a comedy writer’s offer of sex for violence against the Covington kid as well. Nothing was done. > > Currently, in the Pit, there’s a call for George Zimmerman to be shot. Nothing has been done. > > Calls for violence or anything remotely condoning violence should never be acceptable anywhere on SDMB. I would love to hear the justification of allowing calls for violence against a child. Again, the liberal bias of this board shows. Links to those incidents for context _and location_, because you make it sound as if only one incident was in The Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/430 "2019-12-05T05:02:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And I’d like to press this point. Do you think we’ll ever again get decent female or person of colour moderators if they are expected to simply scroll by racism and misogyny? I am not sure, I just don’t know enough about moderation to answer this question. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/431 "2019-12-05T05:07:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I am not sure, I just don’t know enough about moderation to answer this question. Let me help you out here: the answer is “No” I know I would never volunteer to mod this board, because I would not “scroll by” like a [Good German](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_German). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/432 "2019-12-05T05:09:57Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s not actually a contradiction, at least not on the surface. Don’t you sincerely wish everybody would just respect women? Do you sincerely wish everybody would _just get along_? If so, surely you don’t want to _kill_ or _harm_ every person who disrespects women, do you? > > Do you think at least some white nationalists sincerely wish black people would _just go away_? It is not at all implied that all white nationalists want to force black people to move against their will, and it is definitely not implied that all white nationalists want to kill black people. > > I was thinking way back when the reservations were first established. > > ~Max Are…Are you for real? Can you even think about the real world implications about what you just said? Black people…_Go Away_? What is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/433 "2019-12-05T05:12:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > In other words, they’re not bad, just stupid. If you feel like wasting your time arguing with stupid people, feel free. But why should the rest of the board have to host these losers? > > The whole “fighting ignorance” is just a corporate slogan, like Burger King’s “Have It Your Way” or whatever. Not stupid, ignorant. Ignorant people aren’t necessarily stupid. You and **Jragon** both must come here for a different reason than I do. I literally come here to fight ignorance, be it others’ or my own. Maybe the board should change the tagline if it doesn’t signify anything. Maybe it should rebrand entirely. To you and others participating in this thread: we can agree to disagree. It’s your community so much more than it is mine, and to be honest, I am not the one who should be deciding how to move forward. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/434 "2019-12-05T05:14:43Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > To you and others participating in this thread: we can agree to disagree. It’s your community so much more than it is mine, and to be honest, I am not the one who should be deciding how to move forward. But you won’t get out of our way, though… ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/435 "2019-12-05T05:24:15Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Yes. Pardon me for leaving out the phrase “discussions of.” Interesting that that’s the only bit you saw fit to comment on. I didn’t think the rest applied if we’re talking about discussions. To be clear, below I will modify your post to insert “discussions of” as best I can without changing the intent. > [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m getting very weary of this “If you don’t like it, don’t read that thread” approach to [**discussions of**] racism, misogyny, and transphobia. It’s one of the approaches that helped perpetuate iniquitous, damaging situations: > > \*Don’t like [**discussions of**] Blacks having to sit in the back? Don’t eat at that restaurant. > Distressed [**over discussions of herding**] Issei and Nisei into internment camps? Don’t watch. > Don’t like [**discussions of**] sundown laws? Don’t live in that area. > Don’t like [**discussions of**] your boss referring to female employees by their bra sizes and refusing to promote them? Don’t work there. > > Easy-peasy. :rolleyes: I actually want to change a few more things but I don’t want to run afoul of the quote box rule. Outside of the quotebox, here is a more liberal change: [ul][li]Don’t like discussions of whether Blacks should have to sit in the back of restaurants? Don’t join those discussions.[/li][li]Distressed by discussions of whether to herd Japanese into internment camps? Don’t join those discussions.[/li][li]Don’t like discussions of the morality of sundown laws? Don’t join those discussions.[/li][li]Don’t like discussions of whether bosses should refer to female employees by their bra sizes and refuse to promote them? Don’t join those discussions.[/ul][/li] ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/436 "2019-12-05T05:26:44Z")
Word of advice - editing attributed quote boxes is verboten even if you’re just doing it to clarify. Only indicating your own redaction and emphases is allowed AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/437 "2019-12-05T05:37:56Z")
> [@str8cashhomie](#): > > It seemed like you were drawing a distinction between “racism/mysoginy/transphobia” and “discussions about racism/mysoginy/transphobia”. If you were this distinction isn’t valid because the point of avoiding a discussion about those topics is that people in the discussion will actually make racist/sexist/transphobic comments, and you would therefore be asking people to have to actually scroll past real bigotry, not just a discussion about bigotry that avoids bigotry itself. My assumption was that being exposed to bigoted\* comments causes discomfort and therefore is offensive. The bigotry would be hidden behind the thread link on the index page. By not clicking on the thread link, a member could avoid that exposure and therefore avoid discomfort and offense. **nellieby** was talking about how bigotry restricts people’s freedom. It is true that the above advice would result in a member (voluntarily) being restricted from certain threads, but ostensibly they do not want to participate in those threads to begin with, so the issue is moot. Mere commentary does not restrict one’s freedom like other forms of bigotry can, and that’s a distinction I think is important in this case. \*I am using bigoted as a placeholder for racist/misogynist/transphobic ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/438 "2019-12-05T05:43:46Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Several dopers tacitly called for violence against the Covington Catholic school kid by using by using the terms “slapable” and “punchable.” Some dopers refused to condemn a comedy writer’s offer of sex for violence against the Covington kid as well. Nothing was done. I’m sorry, in the Pit? You think that’s a call for violence? A comedy writer? That’s a stretch, dude. Like three stretches all at once. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/439 "2019-12-05T05:58:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The mods just tell you they don’t agree with you, and that people have a right to speak no matter the consequences. They disagree that there’s an immediate effect, though you remain sure there is… If the policy were that people could speak no matter the consequences, I would leave the board. If not, and they disagree that there’s an immediate harm, I would try to get an explanation. I would be profoundly disappointed if the mods _refused_ to explain their decision at all. I can’t predict myself any further than that without specifics. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re simply wrong. > > Do you really need me to cite incidents of [Black](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/12/year-olds-family-says-she-hung-herself-after-racist-bullying-including-taunts-kill-yourself/)and LGBT youth committing suicide after [bullying](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_that_have_been_attributed_to_bullying)incidents to show this? I don’t think I need the cites. I read the WaPo story but I am not going to read every incident on Wikipedia’s list of suicides that have been attributed to bullying. I know that bullying and the _risk_ of suicide are linked, causally even. I can also gather that discrimination against black and LGBT youths is linked to an increased _risk_ of suicide, causally. I am comfortable making that stipulation. Contrast with advocating actual suicide. Risk is a statistic, even if there are real tangible dead people backing up the statistic. Advocating for something that increases the risk of harm is not advocating for harm itself. I am also not considering those bigoted posts that are _motivated_ by a want to actually harm people. I recognize that I sound ridiculous if I leave that part out. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/440 "2019-12-05T06:03:17Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Advocating for something that increases the risk of harm is not advocating for harm itself. Yes, it is. Anything else is sophistry. > [@](#): > > I am also not considering those bigoted posts that are _motivated_ by a want to actually harm people. Irrelevant. Suicide advocates aren’t necessarily motivated by a want to harm people. They can view their motivation as _helping_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=23)