# Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 25, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977 "2019-11-25T18:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/41 "2019-11-25T21:49:35Z")
I’m all for kinder and gentler. Ironically, some people are going to have to be forced into it. What changes will there be to moderation? The ones who can’t police themselves are the problem, so someone will have to do it for them. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/42 "2019-11-25T21:54:23Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Yep, and if you acted disgusted by a self-admitted pedophile for claiming that a 4 year old who played “peekabo” with him actually wanted to have sex with him, you got warned for it. And you got a warning for pointing out in a thread about Traci Lords’ porn that they are talking about a minor. You know, the good old days. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/43 "2019-11-25T22:08:23Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > I’m all for kinder and gentler. Ironically, some people are going to have to be forced into it. What changes will there be to moderation? The ones who can’t police themselves are the problem, so someone will have to do it for them. I think that not one single rule would have to be changed to make this a better and more welcome place, but that the existing ones have to be applied more strictly, especially about trolling and most important, the IMHO mighty rule “don’t be a jerk”. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/44 "2019-11-25T22:08:27Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This kinder-gentler Dope was a time when rape jokes were considered heeelarious and anyone who disagreed was expected to STFU. Exactly. And “I’ll hold them for you” cracks in bra threads. Even today, if someone literally says “Africans are genetically inferior, and by and large lack the capacity to be as intelligent as whites”, well, it’s the person that calls them “racist” who is being mean-spirited, and trying to censor honest discussion. Look, I’m civil. Twenty years, I’ve been civil. But there are real problems that aren’t about lack of civility. It’s that one person’s abstract philosophical debate is someone elae’s life. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/45 "2019-11-25T22:24:05Z")
So I’m not clear what we’re being asked to do. Are they asking me to stop calling out racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry? The answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/46 "2019-11-25T22:51:08Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Am I the only poster to actually get a official warning, instead of your friendly reminder, for saying ‘fuck you’? > > CMC fnord! I’m pretty sure there were one or two other posters who did basically the same thing you did, but I don’t recall specifics. ---
**Author:** ![tricoteuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tricoteuse/32/4334_2.png) [@tricoteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tricoteuse)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/47 "2019-11-25T23:01:09Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This golden age never really existed, what’s different is people are Now more willing to call out the overt racism and sexism that run deep in this board. > [@madmonk28](#): > > This kinder-gentler Dope was a time when rape jokes were considered heeelarious and anyone who disagreed was expected to STFU. It sounds like people who get nostalgic for the “good old days” of the 50s and 60s. Back when racism was socially acceptable and women, if they worked instead of being housewives, could be harassed and told to suck it up and go get married and have babies if they didn’t like it. Or women could be abused by their husbands and had to put it with it because divorce was just such a terrible sin. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > Yep, and if you acted disgusted by a self-admitted pedophile for claiming that a 4 year old who played “peekabo” with him actually wanted to have sex with him, you got warned for it. > [@MandaJo](#): > > Exactly. And “I’ll hold them for you” cracks in bra threads. Even today, if someone literally says “Africans are genetically inferior, and by and large lack the capacity to be as intelligent as whites”, well, it’s the person that calls them “racist” who is being mean-spirited, and trying to censor honest discussion. Ugh! That’s exactly what I was talking about! You can’t call a jerk, whether it’s racist, sexist, or just plain creepy, a jerk without getting in trouble yourself, and the trolls and shit-stirrers know that and take advantage of it. That’s why you need moderators who are willing to put their feet dowbn on that kind of stuff, and why they have to be allowed to do it. > [@](#): > > Look, I’m civil. Twenty years, I’ve been civil. But there are real problems that aren’t about lack of civility. It’s that one person’s abstract philosophical debate is someone elae’s life. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/48 "2019-11-25T23:11:45Z")
> [@tricoteuse](#): > > I know I stormed out in the other thread but I got to thinking maybe I was too harsh. I saw later on that the poster I was steamed up about did get warned for his post and things seemed to have settle down so I thought I’d see what was going on in the aftermath of all of it. > > Firstly, I haven’t been here that long so I don’t know squat about how this board used to be twenty years ago or ten or five or even one. I can only judge it by how it is now, and how people post now, not how the “good old days” might have been. > > Trying to blame everything on current American culture and hinting that everyone who is a member here is all equally to blame seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to pass the buck instead of taking a long hard look at what isn’t working and why. > > Everyone here makes a big deal out of how the main rule is “don’t be a jerk.” That means when people act like jerks, the moderators have to STOP them being jerks. Regular posters can’t do anything. If you tell someone to stop acting a certain way, you’re junior modding. If you call someone a jerk anywhere but the pit, you get in trouble for insulting another poster. If you ask people to stay on topic you get told you dn’t get to dictate how people respond to your thread. All you need is one problem poster who thinks “screw you, you’re not the boss of me!” and the thread gets overrun. > > The moderators DO have that power, but don’t always use it. As a result, the posters who are being jerks keep being jerks, other posters are helpless to stop them, so the only ones left in the threads are the jerks and the posters who can’t help challenging them for whatever reasons. > > You can post all the fluffy sunshine and butterflies feel-good stuff you want, and daydream about the good old days all you want, but that’s not going to accomplish anything. Those days are over. This is now. The members you have now are what you have to work with. > > If you want to make the board a more civil and welcoming place, DO something! It has to start with recruiting moderators who are willing to call being a jerk what it is and stop it before it gets out of hand. And let the moderators use their discretion to do their jobs. Mods who abuse their power get kicked out. If the problem is too many tedious little conflicting rules that the “rules lawyers” can pick apart for loopholes, ditch all the rules and come up with a few clear ones that allow for leeway in interpretation. > > It really does look like you’re trying to blame the membership for not being as kind and welcoming as you think they should be. Guess what, trying to guilt them into changing the board on their own won’t work. Look at any workplace where the boss won’t stand by their employees and see how cheerful and productive they are. Look at a group of kids where the teacher’s pet or the class bully is allowed to do whatever they want and tell them to be more accepting and patient. Think about a fine-dining restaurant where someone is yelling and throwing food and making a ruckus but the manager won’t tell them to leave, and expect the other guests to enjoy their meals. > > Change at the bottom won’t come without change at the top. Excellent. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/49 "2019-11-25T23:15:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Exactly. And “I’ll hold them for you” cracks in bra threads. Even today, if someone literally says “Africans are genetically inferior, and by and large lack the capacity to be as intelligent as whites”, well, it’s the person that calls them “racist” who is being mean-spirited, and trying to censor honest discussion. > > Look, I’m civil. Twenty years, I’ve been civil. But there are real problems that aren’t about lack of civility. It’s that one person’s abstract philosophical debate is someone elae’s life. The problem with that is every contentious concept that could be debated/argued about in a forum such as Great Debates when extrapolated to the real world inevitably has real life consequences. It’s the nature of the forum. Sure you can call it Great Debates and only allow one side just like Elections can be DNC HQ as well. But then the names are farcical. NYT just had an editorial on the Venezuelan sanctions. Children are dying as we type, in part, because of the sanctions. If we were to debate the pros and cons of using sanctions as a tool for regime change would it be appropriate to call one advocating the pro sanction side a racist baby killer? Should the debate be disallowed because the fact that children are dying is too emotionally damaging for some to discuss? Like the pit, nobody is forced to participate in a debate or a topic they find distasteful. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/50 "2019-11-25T23:43:58Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The bigger problem is message boards are slowly dying, much like newspapers. We lose people at a faster rate than they are replaced. We don’t get many younger posters. And there are fewer around to absorb any fringes that pop up; making people bail even faster. But I still think this is one of the ones that will last. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/51 "2019-11-25T23:48:56Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The bigger problem is message boards are slowly dying, much like newspapers. We lose people at a faster rate than they are replaced. We don’t get many younger posters. It’s worse than that, even. Message boards invite discussion and debate. Those are dying out. Social media, like Facebook and Twitter, do not invite discussion. They invite opinion sharing. In our modern world, everybody having their say, expressing their opinion, making their voice heard is more valued than conversation and discussion. So nobody ever has to be wrong. How that might factor into fixing this board, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/52 "2019-11-26T00:05:25Z")
Sorry for coming in late to a thread that I seem have started, but I just noticed it. There’s a lot I could say but tricoteuse already said it probably better than I would. “Don’t be a jerk” also says it all. Jerks will be jerks unless they are stopped. Somehow, the Dope lost the conviction that jerks should be stomped on hard, and swiftly. As an old white man, I’m conflicted. I don’t quite go back as far as Mario Savio’s Free Speech Movement but I was around during Nixon, when the idea of allowing all political sides to speak was under active attack and the use of four-letter words and sexual language could and did send people to jail. I thought I was a free-speech absolutist. So did most of the people who invented the internet and the social platforms on it. Most of them have recanted and so do I. In an ideal world all topics could be freely debated in any and all terms. This isn’t that world. Jerks abound and try to ruin it for the rest of us. The Dope is an extension of our homes and should be run that way. Posters should be told that if they can’t discuss a topic civilly they either change their tune or leave. Ban the pitting of posters; if they are being jerks that publicly the mods should act. Nuts. tricoteuse already said this better. I’ll reduce it to one line: Stop punishing the people who call out the jerks and put a tight lid on the jerks. Things will get better. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/53 "2019-11-26T01:04:44Z")
The problem is that there is a mod or two that think only abusing the Queensberry Rules of debate is a reason to call someone a jerk. They haven’t learned that free speech absolutism is a dead end for discussion forums. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/54 "2019-11-26T01:46:32Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > While we strive for an open and inclusive community, there are certain people that are counterproductive to the aims of the denizens of this board. > > Chief among them are the cynical, the cruel, the name callers, and the judgmental. > > They are accomplices and facilitators to the axe grinders, the agenda seekers, and the trolls. > > Everyone can be part of the process to improvement or a step on the Road to Perdition. > > I know which one is likely be more productive and a hell of a lot more fun. > > Use wisely your freedom of choice. > > Jenny > your humble TubaDiva > [Another way to look at it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrdEMERq8MA) I don’t work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I don’t care if it’s $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/55 "2019-11-26T01:55:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Look, I’m civil. Twenty years, I’ve been civil. But there are real problems that aren’t about lack of civility. It’s that one person’s abstract philosophical debate is someone elae’s life. I am reminded of a [recent blog post by John Scalzi](https://whatever.scalzi.com/2019/11/20/reader-request-week-2019-5-civility/) in which he addressed the problem with “civility,” in a way that I found helpful. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/56 "2019-11-26T01:59:27Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I don’t care if it’s $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it. Are you a millennial? Your money is next to meaningless. Nobody works for you. Other people with equally insignificant monetary contributions disagree with you on the fix. Quit acting like this is a phone delivered with a broken screen. The way to fix things here is not obvious to all. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/57 "2019-11-26T02:00:28Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > The SDMB reflects our society. Today we are in an increasingly tribal, unceasingly warring culture. People don’t discuss or debate in good faith, they decry, they demand, they assault. On the scorched fields of discourse they relentlessly search for targets to attack and destroy. Much of this is played out on the board, and it makes for hard going. > > There is much that needs adjusting here. Everyone needs to be less judgmental, less aggressive, less inclined to condemn. There needs to be genuine social discourse. The entire idea about this place to begin with was that this would be a place where we could talk about damn near everything. More and more it’s a place where we can’t talk about anything. There is truth to this. People are too quick to jump from “your ideas are bad” to “you’re an evil person”. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think I see people in disagreements trying to change the arena from “we disagree on the best methods” to “we disagree because you’re denying humanity.” I’d rather we work to shrink that latter category, while still recognizing its strong pernicious influence on major areas of disagreement. > [@tricoteuse](#): > > Everyone here makes a big deal out of how the main rule is “don’t be a jerk.” That means when people act like jerks, the moderators have to STOP them being jerks. Regular posters can’t do anything. If you tell someone to stop acting a certain way, you’re junior modding. If you call someone a jerk anywhere but the pit, you get in trouble for insulting another poster. If you ask people to stay on topic you get told you dn’t get to dictate how people respond to your thread. All you need is one problem poster who thinks “screw you, you’re not the boss of me!” and the thread gets overrun. > > The moderators DO have that power, but don’t always use it. As a result, the posters who are being jerks keep being jerks, other posters are helpless to stop them, so the only ones left in the threads are the jerks and the posters who can’t help challenging them for whatever reasons. > > [snip] > > If you want to make the board a more civil and welcoming place, DO something! It has to start with recruiting moderators who are willing to call being a jerk what it is and stop it before it gets out of hand. And let the moderators use their discretion to do their jobs. This is also true. If members can’t call out bad behavior except in the Pit, then moderators MUST. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/58 "2019-11-26T02:14:33Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Are you a millennial? Your money is next to meaningless. Nobody works for you. Other people with equally insignificant monetary contributions disagree with you on the fix. Quit acting like this is a phone delivered with a broken screen. The way to fix things here is not obvious to all. Ok, boomer. If my money doesn’t matter, they shouldn’t have asked for it and I’m 53 gramps. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/59 "2019-11-26T02:48:50Z")
I turned 50 this year, fyi. I stand by my point. Quit acting like you’re complaining about a bank service charge. This isn’t that. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/60 "2019-11-26T02:57:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I don’t care if it’s $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it. Useless as saying the same thing to a cop. I hate to agree with CarnalK but that is less than helpful and a pretty jerkish thing to say. ETA and I’m older than da botha ya. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=4)