# Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 25, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977 "2019-11-25T18:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/641 "2019-12-16T20:13:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If we want debate, but label everyone as bigoted who debates, we aren’t going to get much debate. > > Regards, > Shodan As far as I can tell, nobody has labeled everybody who debates as bigoted. That is, everybody except me with regard to Zimmerman. But I said there isn’t a debate if you remove the bigots, I did not say that everybody who debates is bigoted. You can have a debate between bigots and non-bigots. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/642 "2019-12-16T20:19:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Unless you’re saying bigot and conservative are the same thing, which just isn’t true. Not entirely a strawman. I _do_ think certain conservative values are rooted in bigotry, because history is full of bigotry, and tradition is based on history, and conservatism literally means sticking to tradition. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/643 "2019-12-16T20:24:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The issue being that there is a large and vocal element on the SDMB that makes no distinction between (for instance) 'based on the evidence, Christine Ford’s (and Julie Swetnick’s and Debbie Ramirez’s) accusations against Bret Kavanaugh are probably false" and “women should just shut up and spread 'em”. For what it’s worth, if we are talking about bigotry I don’t make the distinction. Unless you know something I don’t, both of these statements are bigoted. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/644 "2019-12-16T20:51:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > For what it’s worth, if we are talking about bigotry I don’t make the distinction. Unless you know something I don’t, both of these statements are bigoted. > > ~Max IIUC, you are saying that concluding, based on the evidence, that Ford’s allegation was untrue, and “women should just shut up and spread 'em”, are bigoted statements. If that’s true, then I suspect many Dopers agree with you. They would then conclude that neither statement should be allowed. I don’t know anything you don’t, but I have a different opinion. Namely that true statements should form the basis for debate, and should not be excluded. Many years ago, there was a monster thread about Crystal Mangum and her accusations of the Duke lacrosse team. It turns out that her accusations were false. Therefore, it matters to me not at all if most accusations of the sort are true, or that she was black and they were white, or anything other than the fact that what she claimed was false. > [@Ben Shapiro](#): > > Facts don’t care about your feelings. We can argue about what the facts really are, and we always do. But “I don’t care if it is true; I don’t want to know” isn’t fighting ignorance - it’s promulgating it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/645 "2019-12-16T21:24:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > IIUC, you are saying that concluding, based on the evidence, that Ford’s allegation was untrue, and “women should just shut up and spread 'em”, are bigoted statements. If that’s true, then I suspect many Dopers agree with you. They would then conclude that neither statement should be allowed. > > I don’t know anything you don’t, but I have a different opinion. Namely that true statements should form the basis for debate, and should not be excluded. > > Many years ago, there was a monster thread about Crystal Mangum and her accusations of the Duke lacrosse team. It turns out that her accusations were false. Therefore, it matters to me not at all if most accusations of the sort are true, or that she was black and they were white, or anything other than the fact that what she claimed was false. We can argue about what the facts really are, and we always do. But “I don’t care if it is true; I don’t want to know” isn’t fighting ignorance - it’s promulgating it. > > Regards, > Shodan Again, maybe there’s something you know that I don’t. I am not aware of any _facts_ that disprove Dr. Ford’s allegation of sexual assault. I am not aware of any facts proving it either. You appear to claim that her allegations are probably false, and as far as I know the only way to support such a claim is by relying on generalizations that trigger my definition of bigotry. Whether or not those generalizations are practical or moral or even ultimately true in this instance are irrelevant to my determination of bigotry. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/646 "2019-12-16T22:15:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Now, I am not an ends-justify-the-means sort of person. I first need to agree that it is reasonable for most normal posters to leave on account of bigotry. Reason would then demand my concession that bigotry should be censored. > > Earlier in this thread, and in a previous thread, I introduced the possibility of a good-faith bigot: someone who sincerely holds a bigoted opinion, but is not malicious (does not want to cause harm). Not all bigots argue in good faith, but I am asserting that at least some of them do, possibly due to ignorance. > > The opposite of this is bad-faith bigotry, which I agree should be disallowed. The initial presumption is of good-faith, but once it becomes clear that a member is posting in bad-faith (whether he or she is a bigot or not), that member deserves a warning. > > We are left with presumptively good-faith bigotry. Does good-faith bigotry still drive away normal posters? What are the reasons that normal posters might be driven away by sincere and non-malicious bigotry? Because they don’t like to be hated and threatened with imprisonment, torture or death. It doesn’t matter to the victim whether the person hurting them is a true believer or an opportunistic liar. Like the line goes, the term for somebody who doesn’t \*really \*believe in Nazi ideology but goes along with it out of opportunism or indifference, is “Nazi”. You are trying to draw an irrelevant distinction, as well as belittle people who fear for their lives and freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/647 "2019-12-16T22:58:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Again, maybe there’s something you know that I don’t. I am not aware of any _facts_ that disprove Dr. Ford’s allegation of sexual assault. I am not aware of any facts proving it either. You appear to claim that her allegations are probably false, and as far as I know the only way to support such a claim is by relying on generalizations that trigger my definition of bigotry. This is a remarkable statement. But you’re qualifying it with “as far as I know”, which may be very significant. How much do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/648 "2019-12-16T22:59:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they don’t like to be hated and threatened with imprisonment, torture or death. It doesn’t matter to the victim whether the person hurting them is a true believer or an opportunistic liar. > > Like the line goes, the term for somebody who doesn’t \*really \*believe in Nazi ideology but goes along with it out of opportunism or indifference, is “Nazi”. You are trying to draw an irrelevant distinction, as well as belittle people who fear for their lives and freedom. Okay, let me try to put this in my own words, and again you stop me where I misunderstand. Most normal posters dislike/fear being hated or threatened with harm (eg: imprisonment, torture, or death). Bigoted opinions are inherently hateful and/or threaten some people with harm. Therefore, some normal posters dislike/fear discussions with bigoted opinions. Most normal posters leave discussions they dislike/fear. Therefore, some normal posters leave discussions with bigoted opinions. […] Therefore, bigotry should be censored. If I read your opinion accurately, my next question is whether it is reasonable to leave a discussion when a person says something that you feel threatens you with harm, even though that person argues with sincerity and without malice. If so, why? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/649 "2019-12-16T23:02:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a remarkable statement. But you’re qualifying it with “as far as I know”, which may be very significant. > > How much do you know? I didn’t follow the hearings in their entirety, but I’ve read a few articles and listened to other people from various sources tell me what the facts are. If you want to make a new thread, give me a link and I’ll debate you there. ETA: “as far as I know” was specifically because I cannot prove a negative (there are no arguments that support X without making bigoted generalizations) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/650 "2019-12-16T23:09:00Z")
Not in this forum, sorry. Based on your numerous posts to this thread I was surprised to see you posting what I would consider an extremely close-minded viewpoint, but I considered that you might simply have not followed that story too closely. (It sounds from your response that this may indeed be the case.) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/651 "2019-12-16T23:16:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not in this forum, sorry. > > Based on your numerous posts to this thread I was surprised to see you posting what I would consider an extremely close-minded viewpoint, but I considered that you might simply have not followed that story too closely. (It sounds from your response that this may indeed be the case.) I guess I could do a short proof of impossibility by saying you can’t apply a probability statistic to some event outside the original data set without doing _some sort_ of generalization. I guess I am assuming that **Shodan** makes a generalization of women, or alleged victims, or men. I am not aware of any other relevant arguments. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/652 "2019-12-16T23:24:44Z")
I doubt if your assumption holds. And even if it does, not every generalization involves bigotry. If someone believed Ford because “women rarely lie about rape”, I doubt if you would be calling that bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/653 "2019-12-16T23:35:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I doubt if your assumption holds. > > And even if it does, not every generalization involves bigotry. If someone believed Ford because “women rarely lie about rape”, I doubt if you would be calling that bigotry. If the implication is that men usually lie about rape, that is sexist. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/654 "2019-12-16T23:38:03Z")
That would obviously not be the implication. If anything, the implication would be that rapists usually lie about rape, which is not sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/655 "2019-12-16T23:46:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That would obviously not be the implication. > > If anything, the implication would be that rapists usually lie about rape, which is not sexist. I see what you are saying. If **Shodan** (or anyone, really) held the opinion that victims of sexual assault usually lie about their allegations, then that would _not_ be bigotry. I hadn’t considered that possibility because I think that opinion is not only false, but morally detestable. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/656 "2019-12-17T00:56:34Z")
So after all these back and forths with a wide variety of posters, we find Max S is using some personal nonstandard definition of bigotry. What a massive waste of time and pixels. I shall not make that mistake again. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/657 "2019-12-17T02:02:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I see what you are saying. If **Shodan** (or anyone, really) held the opinion that victims of sexual assault usually lie about their allegations, then that would _not_ be bigotry. I hadn’t considered that possibility because I think that opinion is not only false, but morally detestable. > > ~Max Welcome to the fuckin’ show. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/658 "2019-12-17T02:08:44Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If I read your opinion accurately, my next question is whether it is reasonable to leave a discussion when a person says something that you feel threatens you with harm, even though that person argues with sincerity and without malice. If so, why? Because\* there is no difference.\* If somebody tortures you to death it doesn’t do you any good if their beliefs are “sincere”. You’re still dead. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/659 "2019-12-17T02:34:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they don’t like to be hated and threatened with imprisonment, torture or death. Is there any cite of any Doper on this message board ever having threatened to imprison, torture and murder another Doper? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/660 "2019-12-17T02:40:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is there any cite of any Doper on this message board ever having threatened to imprison, torture and murder another Doper? That’s what supporting Trump and the Republicans\* means.\* That’s why various other forums that try to be friendly to minorities/women/LGBTQ people have banned an announcement of support for Trump, because it’s simply shorthand for “I want to kill you”. And I’ve certainly been threatened that way in the past; it’s why I stopped paying attention to BBQ Pit threads aimed at me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=34)