# Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 25, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977 "2019-11-25T18:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/61 "2019-11-26T03:02:39Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Useless as saying the same thing to a cop. I hate to agree with CarnalK but that is less than helpful and a pretty jerkish thing to say. > > ETA and I’m older than da botha ya. I don’t give a shit what either of you think, old white men’s sense of entitlement is a big fucking part of the problem around here. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/62 "2019-11-26T03:10:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t give a shit what either of you think, old white men’s sense of entitlement is a big fucking part of the problem around here. I’m younger than you. And I really don’t think any sense of middle aged white entitlement I might have makes much effect on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/63 "2019-11-26T03:12:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I am reminded of a [recent blog post by John Scalzi](https://whatever.scalzi.com/2019/11/20/reader-request-week-2019-5-civility/) in which he addressed the problem with “civility,” in a way that I found helpful. This was a good piece. There are lots of salient points, but this stood out to me: > [@](#): > > Which is why people who are not on the inside are wary of “calls for civility”: They are being told that to be heard, they have to engage in a rhetorical system in which the value of their _actual injury_ is held to be the equivalent to the value of the other side’s \*emotional investment \*in the rules of discussion. “Yes, you are suffering, but you were also _rude to me_ about it, so _my_ suffering is the same.” Which is, you know, bullshit. And the injured know it, even if the person calling for “civility” is not. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/64 "2019-11-26T03:26:03Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Am I the only poster to actually get a official warning, instead of your friendly reminder, for saying ‘fuck you’? > > CMC fnord! There was at least [one other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15891031&highlight=warning+fuck#post15891031). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/65 "2019-11-26T04:06:18Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > … Everyone needs to be less judgmental, less aggressive, less inclined to condemn. There needs to be genuine social discourse. The entire idea about this place to begin with was that this would be a place where we could talk about damn near everything. More and more it’s a place where we can’t talk about anything. … It seems to me that too many of us feel that we are here to reduce others’ ignorance instead of our own. **Sunny Daze** , what is discussion about? Is its purpose to have our individual injuries validated or measured up against each other? Or to better understand each other bidirectionally and have our own understandings challenged and tested? To reduce our own ignorance? If the former then sure, there is no need for civility, and usually you will end up only in echo chamber rooms of self-affirmation. If the latter then IMHO civility, and benefit of the doubt, matters. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/66 "2019-11-26T04:28:22Z")
I liked that piece, because calling for civility can definitely be seen as a way of shutting down discussion. I agree with you that discussion in order to > [@](#): > > … better understand each other bidirectionally and have our own understandings challenged and tested? To reduce our own ignorance? is a better direction and aspiration for the board. Perhaps calling for respect is more helpful? Being civil doesn’t guarantee honesty in debate. Respecting the people you are debating with is more likely to be productive. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/67 "2019-11-26T04:36:24Z")
There are people on another message board that openly talk about socking up just so they can fuck with this board. If the owner of that other board claims to be a friend of this board, can we maybe talk to him and ask him to cut that shit out? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/68 "2019-11-26T04:40:34Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > There are people on another message board that openly talk about socking up just so they can fuck with this board. > > If the owner of that other board claims to be a friend of this board, can we maybe talk to him and ask him to cut that shit out? I hear that we need more moderators around here. Might be a conflict of interest, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/69 "2019-11-26T04:40:39Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I liked that piece, because calling for civility can definitely be seen as a way of shutting down discussion. I agree with you that discussion in order to is a better direction and aspiration for the board. Perhaps calling for respect is more helpful? Being civil doesn’t guarantee honesty in debate. Respecting the people you are debating with is more likely to be productive. I like that phrasing! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/70 "2019-11-26T04:46:50Z")
OK, this is probably not going to sit well with the free speech types but would it be crazy for the board to have a list of a few things that we take as a given? A few short simple things like “human driven climate change is real” & “there’s no significant genetic differences between races”? Some may say that’s the board taking a political position. I consider it a reality position. How we address those issues is political. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/71 "2019-11-26T04:57:31Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@madmonk28](#): > > Ok, boomer. If my money doesn’t matter, they shouldn’t have asked for it and I’m 53 gramps. > [@CarnalK](#): > > I turned 50 this year, fyi. > > I stand by my point. Quit acting like you’re complaining about a bank service charge. This isn’t that. > [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t give a shit what either of you think, old white men’s sense of entitlement is a big fucking part of the problem around here. Dial it back, please. This is getting too snippy for ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/72 "2019-11-26T05:03:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > OK, this is probably not going to sit well with the free speech types but would it be crazy for the board to have a list of a few things that we take as a given? A few short simple things like “human driven climate change is real” & “there’s no significant genetic differences between races”? > > Some may say that’s the board taking a political position. I consider it a reality position. How we address those issues is political. In most areas…fuck ‘free speech types’, _“Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. It’s just bibble-babble. It’s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks.”_ Harlan Ellison CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/73 "2019-11-26T05:26:30Z")
I could see the idea quite easily being taken to bad places but some ignorance fighting requires insisting certain battles have been won. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/74 "2019-11-26T05:29:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I could see the idea quite easily being taken to bad places but some ignorance fighting requires insisting certain battles have been won. Hehe, you want bad places? Lets just say, we’re fortunate that none of the Flat Earthers I know can type coherent sentences. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/75 "2019-11-26T11:12:17Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > The SDMB reflects our society. Today we are in an increasingly tribal, unceasingly warring culture. People don’t discuss or debate in good faith, they decry, they demand, they assault. On the scorched fields of discourse they relentlessly search for targets to attack and destroy. Much of this is played out on the board, and it makes for hard going. Please dig a little bit deeper on this. _Why_ is it so hard to discuss and debate in good faith? Why has the culture become more hostile? Why is debate so difficult? ([Hint](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21716888#post21716888).) > [@](#): > > I ask for your assistance and your forbearance too; we can’t get there overnight. And we can’t get there unless everyone does their part. Be an active force for better; model the attitudes and behavior you want to see here. I believe good content has the potential to drive out the bad. Light can dispel darkness. I believe we can go back to a time when we were more gracious, where we gave the benefit of the doubt, where we respected the right to agree to disagree, when we didn’t judge people so hard and so harshly and hated them because they were different. > > This change comes from all of us. Please work with me to make it real. This is a bit like pledging bipartisanship and compromise. It’s all well and good to say “let’s do that”, but _you cannot unilaterally make it happen_. What you can unilaterally do is ban trolls who make it difficult or impossible… but this call for civility kind of sounds a lot like exactly the opposite of that. Hell, the idea that good content can drive out the bad is something we keep testing, and we keep coming up with the answer of, “No, because people won’t stop responding to trolls”. What we need isn’t civility. What we need is some standards. > [@CarnalK](#): > > The problem is that there is a mod or two that think only abusing the Queensberry Rules of debate is a reason to call someone a jerk. They haven’t learned that free speech absolutism is a dead end for discussion forums. I did not expect to hear this from you, but damn if you aren’t totally right on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/76 "2019-11-26T14:37:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Please dig a little bit deeper on this. _Why_ is it so hard to discuss and debate in good faith? Why has the culture become more hostile? Why is debate so difficult? ([Hint](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21716888#post21716888).) > > This is a bit like pledging bipartisanship and compromise. It’s all well and good to say “let’s do that”, but _you cannot unilaterally make it happen_. What you can unilaterally do is ban trolls who make it difficult or impossible… but this call for civility kind of sounds a lot like exactly the opposite of that. So, hypothetically, if someone believes that a strong US southern border is good policy, and that the harsh treatment of detained illegal border crossers, including children, is a necessary side-effect of that policy, is that trolling? Is it trolling to argue that the harsh detention conditions are due to a lack of legislative reform that’s decades old, encompassing Democratic and Republican administrations? This is About This Message Board and I’m not interested in having a discussion on the political issue in the above paragraph here. It wouldn’t even be an honest discussion since that’s a hypothetical position. I’m also not interested in joining the cesspool that is the linked debate. I’ll note that its title is “What Effect Will Trump’s Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?” which guaranteed that the debate would be antagonistic. To me, that thread looks like it was started with the intention of it being an excrement-flinging conflict. So what do you expect the moderators to do? Should they shut that thread down immediately to prevent the flinging? Once the flinging starts, should they attempt to referee it based on some subjective measure of putridness? Does the side that complains the loudest get to restrict the other side’s flinging by appealing to the moderators? I don’t think there’s any good solution. Once the first person takes a shot at the other side, the other side’s going to start taking shots back. When the thread title itself starts the shot-taking, what else should be expected? Should shot-taking be forbidden? There’s an awful lot of snark and sarcasm built into this board’s culture. I thought about suggesting a BBQ Pit sub-forum for Pit Debates when things get out of hand, but that would just give people something else to complain about. It would be great if the answer was simply for everyone to be nicer and more tolerant of opposing viewpoints. One way to start that? Resist the urge of insulting another poster by calling them a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/77 "2019-11-26T15:05:43Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > So, hypothetically, if someone believes that a strong US southern border is good policy, and that the harsh treatment of detained illegal border crossers, including children, is a necessary side-effect of that policy, is that trolling? Is it trolling to argue that the harsh detention conditions are due to a lack of legislative reform that’s decades old, encompassing Democratic and Republican administrations? That’s… not what the quoted post does, though. I highlighted it not because it defended the (IMHO indefensible, but that’s something we can and did have a reasonable debate about) conditions surrounding the concentration camps we’re throwing migrants into, but because it was the rhetorical equivalent of a [del]6-year-old[/del] president of the united states stuffing their fingers in their ears and saying, “LALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU”. It serves zero purpose in the discussion other than to signal that some people involved have absolutely zero interest in addressing the evidence, and are going to go on faith instead. It is the essence of postmodern conservatism. Like, imagine if a creationist came into a discussion on evolution and said, “Eh, you have all this evidence, but we know it’s fake anyways, because the bible said so”. Even if that weren’t an absolutely textbook example of trolling, the end result is the same - it provides no value to the discussion and simply pushes it in a totally unproductive direction. > [@](#): > > I’m also not interested in joining the cesspool that is the linked debate. It wasn’t a cesspool for the first 5 pages or so. That’s what has me so miffed. > [@](#): > > I’ll note that its title is “What Effect Will Trump’s Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?” which guaranteed that the debate would be antagonistic. To me, that thread looks like it was started with the intention of it being an excrement-flinging conflict. So what do you expect the moderators to do? Should they shut that thread down immediately to prevent the flinging? Once the flinging starts, should they attempt to referee it based on some subjective measure of putridness? Does the side that complains the loudest get to restrict the other side’s flinging by appealing to the moderators? You have completely misread the intention of the thread and assumed that it was shit-flinging, rather than an accurate and sober reading of the available facts. I was very careful in my OP to cite numerous experts and establish my premise. The fact that it reflects rather poorly on the administration to have concentration camps does not make recognizing that fact “shit-flinging”. I’m sure it reflects poorly on the administration that Trump cheated on his wife with a prostitute, but that doesn’t somehow become less true, and it certainly doesn’t become “shitflinging” just because some people don’t want to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/78 "2019-11-26T16:01:54Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > So, hypothetically, if someone believes that a strong US southern border is good policy, and that the harsh treatment of detained illegal border crossers, including children, is a necessary side-effect of that policy, is that trolling? Is it trolling to argue that the harsh detention conditions are due to a lack of legislative reform that’s decades old, encompassing Democratic and Republican administrations? > > This is About This Message Board and I’m not interested in having a discussion on the political issue in the above paragraph here. It wouldn’t even be an honest discussion since that’s a hypothetical position. I’m also not interested in joining the cesspool that is the linked debate. I’ll note that its title is “What Effect Will Trump’s Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?” which guaranteed that the debate would be antagonistic. To me, that thread looks like it was started with the intention of it being an excrement-flinging conflict. So what do you expect the moderators to do? Should they shut that thread down immediately to prevent the flinging? Once the flinging starts, should they attempt to referee it based on some subjective measure of putridness? Does the side that complains the loudest get to restrict the other side’s flinging by appealing to the moderators? > > I don’t think there’s any good solution. Once the first person takes a shot at the other side, the other side’s going to start taking shots back. When the thread title itself starts the shot-taking, what else should be expected? Should shot-taking be forbidden? There’s an awful lot of snark and sarcasm built into this board’s culture. I thought about suggesting a BBQ Pit sub-forum for Pit Debates when things get out of hand, but that would just give people something else to complain about. It would be great if the answer was simply for everyone to be nicer and more tolerant of opposing viewpoints. One way to start that? Resist the urge of insulting another poster by calling them a troll. I endorse this post. Too many posters are inclined to call people who disagree with them trolls. It seems like they can’t fathom that someone might sincerely disagree with their position, so the only possible explanation they can see is “trolling!” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/79 "2019-11-26T16:28:38Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > People don’t discuss or debate in good faith, they decry, they demand, they assault. On the scorched fields of discourse they relentlessly search for targets to attack and destroy. Now I’m picturing the Four Horsemen of the Straight Dope Apocalypse. You know who you are. :smack::eek: ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977/80 "2019-11-26T16:29:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I endorse this post. Too many posters are inclined to call people who disagree with them trolls. It seems like they can’t fathom that someone might sincerely disagree with their position, so the only possible explanation they can see is “trolling!” Conversely, there are people willing to defend trolling they approve of by assigning the point of contention to overall ideological disagreement rather than specific language used by the individual in question. Not all accusations of trolling are true but not all are false either, and there is a wide grey area in between. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977.md?page=5)