# Distilling For Personal Use. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251 "2011-08-10T20:52:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/61 "2011-08-11T19:48:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > _I_ didn’t do it by myself. You did it too. We all did. That’s the way democracy works. If we all decide to change it, then that’s one thing. My point is that none of these things are part of some inviolate system of “rights” that are separate from any other thing that we as a society choose to regulate. I wasn’t alive at the time any of those laws were passed and I didn’t get a vote. The tax revenue they protect today has become so important no legislator in their right mind would try to change things. The alcohol makers, distributors, retailers, advertisers, etc. sure won’t stand still for any such ideas either. But none of their motives are for a fairer democracy, or for public safety. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/62 "2011-08-11T20:29:17Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > The thumb is already on the scale. The tax revenue gives a high motivation to continue to restrict distilling. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The tax revenue they protect today has become so important no legislator in their right mind would try to change things. So maybe it’s just possible that regulating distillation for the the public benefit of tax revenue is a more important public interest than the private non-right to distill at home. That’s the kind of balancing of public and private interests that happens all the time in a democracy. You might disagree with it and I invite you to try to put together a coalition to change it, but there’s no injustice here, so far as I can tell. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I wasn’t alive at the time any of those laws were passed and I didn’t get a vote. That’s kind of irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/63 "2011-08-11T20:43:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s kind of irrelevant. It’s not at all irrelevant as a reply to the incorrect statement that I was part of the decision. I wasn’t. You are misunderstanding why the tax revenue is important and to whom it is important but those are separate debates. Home distilling that is truly for personal use is only technically illegal due to laws intended to allow tax enforcement on the \*sale \*of alcohol (something that home brewing is not disrupting at all in the spirit of the law). The result is that if you want to have a drink you have to buy it. You aren’t allowed to boil some legal ingredients in your own home, skim off the impurities, and drink the resulting brew inside your own home. That would make the creators of the democracy you are defending blind with rage if not methanol poisoning from immediately making their own stills at home in protest. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/64 "2011-08-11T20:52:21Z")
I wouldn’t call it necessarily injustice, but it isn’t exactly fair either. If something you might want to try your hand at, say, taking and developing photographs, was restricted such that you could only pass your film off to be developed at a licensed photo lab, basically done that way to make sure that photos could be taxed and inspected, would that bother you? I mean, the chemicals involved in developing can be dangerous. There isn’t any good reason to cook your own meals, grow your own vegetables, develop your own film, repair your own vehicles, do your own taxes, or cut your own hair. It should all be done by licensed individuals in a central corporate space. It is in the best interests of the public (regulated safety and increased tax revenue) and in the best interests of larger businesses engaged in the practice (a higher cost to break into the market). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/65 "2011-08-11T20:54:24Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > It’s not at all irrelevant as a reply to the incorrect statement that I was part of the decision. I wasn’t. Actually, as a member of the voting public, you are a part of the decision regardless of whether you cast a vote in the initial case or whether you ever cast any kind of vote at all. So long as you’re allowed to vote in elections, you are a part of the decision. > [@](#): > > That would make the creators of the democracy you are defending blind with rage 1. I don’t see how you can be so sure of that. As president, George Washington was ready to use military force to enforce a whiskey excise tax. 2. I really don’t care what the “creators of the democracy” would have thought about any particular policy decision. They created the structure so that we can come to our own decisions about the appropriateness of any particular policy. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/66 "2011-08-11T21:07:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually, as a member of the voting public, you are a part of the decision regardless of whether you cast a vote in the initial case or whether you ever cast any kind of vote at all. So long as you’re allowed to vote in elections, you are a part of the decision. You can choose to follow that illusion but in fact it existed before I was born and is firmly engrained now and supported only by the interests of private industry and government tax collectors but not “the people”, and the law will never come up for a vote as things are due to lobbying, corruption, the perpetuation of scare tactics like blindness and lead poisoning, when in fact those cases almost without fail arise from the practice being illegal in the first place, etc. > [@](#): > > 1. I don’t see how you can be so sure of that. As president, George Washington was ready to use military force to enforce a whiskey excise tax. > > 2. I really don’t care what the “creators of the democracy” would have thought about any particular policy decision. They created the structure so that we can come to our own decisions about the appropriateness of any particular policy. 1. Again, selling alcohol, not making it in one’s own kitchen for personal use. 2. I do. And you are citing the fruits of their labor as the reason you believe this to be just, and why all of us could change it if we wanted to as a majority, when neither are true by a longshot. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/67 "2011-08-11T22:17:19Z")
Will it be made legal? Anyone thinking that this will ever be legal in the US is kidding themselves. If (a big IF) a person could ever get enough ground-level support to even get someone’s attention on this, it would never get enough votes to pass. Every State Governor would come out against it on safety grounds, either the fear of methanol poisoning or simply explosions from alcohol vapor. Of course, what they would really be thinking about is the lost tax revenue but that would take a back seat in public debates. Same reason no state will EVER outlaw tobacco. It’s bad for you, addictive, etc. etc. but too many jobs depend on it and too many states live off the taxes. Testy ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/68 "2011-08-12T20:41:27Z")
My first thought was “Of course it should be legal.” In fact, I didn’t know it was illegal. Upon reflecting a little while, I’m OK with leaving things the way that they are. My reasoning is that making home distillation legal would tend to end up harming the poorest of society. Although Joe Home Distiller would take the proper precautions and discard the first 50ml (according to someone’s cite above) in order to make his batch safe, Joe Shady Character who is planning on making a buck by going downtown and selling his hooch to people living on the street, might not be so careful. He might view it as a waste of money. Drug dealers already cut their drugs with potentially harmful ingredients. Joe Shady Character probably won’t mind risking a little blindness of his customers. I realize that the title of the OP says “Personal Use” but once home distilling is legal, how do you keep it from being resold? We already have a “War on Drugs”. Do we really need a “War on Homebrew” as well? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/69 "2011-08-12T20:54:39Z")
I wonder about the economics. Is it really that much cheaper to distill at home? If you were going to sell homebrew beer you’d have to charge a pretty penny to actually make any money wouldn’t you? It seems it would be cheaper to just get a bottle of MD20/20 or even cheap vodka. But as I said I’m not familliar with the economics involved. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/70 "2011-08-12T21:01:55Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > My first thought was “Of course it should be legal.” In fact, I didn’t know it was illegal. Upon reflecting a little while, I’m OK with leaving things the way that they are. My reasoning is that making home distillation legal would tend to end up harming the poorest of society. Although Joe Home Distiller would take the proper precautions and discard the first 50ml (according to someone’s cite above) in order to make his batch safe, Joe Shady Character who is planning on making a buck by going downtown and selling his hooch to people living on the street, might not be so careful. He might view it as a waste of money. Drug dealers already cut their drugs with potentially harmful ingredients. Joe Shady Character probably won’t mind risking a little blindness of his customers. > > I realize that the title of the OP says “Personal Use” but once home distilling is legal, how do you keep it from being resold? We already have a “War on Drugs”. Do we really need a “War on Homebrew” as well? We already did. It was called prohibition. Some of it’s vestiges have led to this discussion. Anyone could already go into a drug store and buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol or methanol, pour it into a new bottle with a little scotch, and go take advantage of impoverished people by selling the poison hooch right now. The laws in question do nothing to protect against anything like that. Anyone could also pick some mushrooms in their yard and accidentally make up a stew that killed the whole neighborhood. There is potential for illness from poor storage or preparation of anything edible, or by adding anything non-edible to anything. Its the taxes, just the taxes. Nothing to do with health. By that logic we would need to live in padded rooms connected to IV’s and oxygen tanks. You can’t outlaw everything that could potentially be dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/71 "2011-08-12T21:06:03Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Its the taxes, just the taxes. Nothing to do with health. By that logic we would need to live in padded rooms connected to IV’s and oxygen tanks. **You can’t outlaw everything that could potentially be dangerous.** That doesn’t mean that you should legalize everything that is. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/72 "2011-08-12T21:30:38Z")
Joe Shady Character would use the absolute cheapest ingredients. That would be using a high alcohol yeast and sugar. > [@randomface](#): > > The only way you can really get poisoned by distilled beverages is if it has been cut or if it was made in a lead soldered still. > > The sources I have found give a methanol concentration of roughly 3 parts per million for a fermented sugar wash. A dose of methanol as low as 10 mL can damage your optic nerves, although drinking ethanol with it will vastly decrease the danger. To get 10 mL of methanol you would have to concentrate pure methanol from a 3000 liter batch of wash. As I explained above, the end product of this process is not dangerous, at least no more dangerous than alcohol you buy at the store. It is currently illegal, and if personal use distillation were legal, it would still be illegal. I still invite a cite for someone injured from distillation products that haven’t been cut with something else like brake cleaner or made in a lead soldered still. I have provided evidence above that distillation products, even those made cheaply, are not likely to blind someone. If it cannot be proven to be dangerous, then all that is left is religious arguments and taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/73 "2011-08-12T22:34:53Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I realize that the title of the OP says “Personal Use” but once home distilling is legal, how do you keep it from being resold? We already have a “War on Drugs”. Do we really need a “War on Homebrew” as well? You realize that “War on Drugs” refers to the _illegal_ condition? Legalization means _ending_ such “wars,” not starting them. As I mentioned, moonshining is _presently active_ in my area. People who really want to get illegal white liquor can do so, right now,\* just as they can get marijuana and meth (also produced in the region). - In fact, because Virginia has state Alcoholic Beverage Control stores (though the current governor wants to privatize them), and my county has none, there is literally moonshine for sale (discreetly) nearer to me than there is legal liquor. That won’t be the case for most folks, of course, whatever the law, but it is funny. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/74 "2011-08-14T18:40:16Z")
If the “public good” were all that mattered, it would be illegal to sell any alcoholic beverages at all. Given present trends, it probably will become illegal within the next 20 years. But that’s OK, football will be illegal too, so no need for beer to drink while watching it. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/75 "2011-08-14T21:32:18Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I wonder about the economics. Is it really that much cheaper to distill at home? If you were going to sell homebrew beer you’d have to charge a pretty penny to actually make any money wouldn’t you? It seems it would be cheaper to just get a bottle of MD20/20 or even cheap vodka. > But as I said I’m not familliar with the economics involved. Depending on your homebrew recipe, you can get some great beers at less per bottle than it’d cost you to buy your average $7-9 6-pack of craft brewery selection. But, if you actually wanted to make money turning around and selling said beer, you’d have to up the price a bit. Homebrewing can be cost-effective for personal use, but generally is not going to be a good basis for a business. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/76 "2011-08-14T22:37:13Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > You realize that “War on Drugs” refers to the _illegal_ condition? Legalization means _ending_ such “wars,” not starting them. Yes, I realize that. But the OP specifies “for personal use”. From that, I assume that untaxed sales would still be illegal. [QUOTE=spark240] As I mentioned, moonshining is _presently active_ in my area. People who really want to get illegal white liquor can do so, right now,\* just as they can get marijuana and meth (also produced in the region). [/quote] Do the police do anything to enforce moonshining laws? Do you want to see this activity increased? And before you ask, no I don’t have a cite that legalizing home distillation would increase illegal sales because I know of no place that has recently legalized home distillation. I think it would happen but honestly it’s just MHO. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/77 "2011-08-14T22:56:04Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > If the “public good” were all that mattered, it would be illegal to sell any alcoholic beverages at all. Given present trends, it probably will become illegal within the next 20 years. But that’s OK, football will be illegal too, so no need for beer to drink while watching it. In the same way it served the public good last time you tried to make it illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/78 "2011-08-15T02:56:32Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > And before you ask, no I don’t have a cite that legalizing home distillation would increase illegal sales because I know of no place that has recently legalized home distillation. I think it would happen but honestly it’s just MHO. See posts #38 and #49 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/79 "2011-08-15T05:36:36Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Do the police do anything to enforce moonshining laws? Do you want to see this activity increased? Discretion has always been required; some still somewhere around this end of the state gets busted every month or so, on average. There have been several cycles of boosted enforcement “operations” which yielded impressive news reports of tons of sugar, thousands of jugs, but apparently no lasting crimps on the supply. We’d be due for another crackdown about now but the Illegal Whiskey Unit was disbanded for budget reasons. So anyway, there’s plenty of illegal selling going on. It seems to me that legalization of home stills could separate hobby-scale operations aimed at personal and local consumption from the somewhat less savory stuff intended for urban markets, and enforcement efforts could look to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251/80 "2011-08-18T01:37:33Z")
You guys do realize why there are such a thing as mixed drinks…right? Before prohibition there wasn’t really a need for mixing alcohol with anything, but then…the prohibiton happened :eek:…suddenly everyone and their grandfather is out in the woods and in their homes making, what’s known as, [bathtub gin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_gin). This horrible, awfull, nasty nasty nasty concoction was soooo bad, they actually had to mix it with something just to get the shit down their throats. Cocktails survive today because the drinks tasted much better with real booze in there instead of some home-made garbage, but mainly because people are pussies and can’t even handle a little strength to their drink. I, for one, prefer my liquor un-tainted, even ice, to me, is a total sin and a disgrace to the beauty of a finely brewed whiskey (single-malt especially). Same goes for vodka, gin, rum and yes, tequila too. I even like the cheap stuff straight, but only 'cause I might be [this man](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxE). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/distilling-for-personal-use/592251.md?page=5)