# Diversity Casting & the LOTR movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482 "2017-05-12T21:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/61 "2017-05-16T05:31:13Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Should a creator attempt to force people to use a particular race? Who cares? That has nothing to do with any conversation going on in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/62 "2017-05-16T13:15:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Who cares? That has nothing to do with any conversation going on in this thread. That’s the scenario **mhendo** references. A playwright who stipulated in the licensing rights to the play that only people of the appropriate race may play the parts: > [@](#): > > Yes, but the playwright had made clear, BEFORE the college put on the production, that an ethnically diverse cast was a precondition of running the play. The college was not supposed to engage in the production unless they could meet this condition. The fact that the person was already cast is irrelevant, because **the very act of casting a white person in that role defied the explicit contractual obligations** that the college agreed to when it licensed the play. (bolding mine) I agree that it has little to do with LotR but I’m not the one who brought it into this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/63 "2017-05-16T15:16:51Z")
I find it more annoying when a movie about a band of adventurers/heroes/comic book heroes has ONE TOKEN FEMALE. Usually smokin’ hot, to give the fanboys something to drool at. Just the one, as if, can’t have more than one super-bitch disturbing the action vibe, throwing the dynamic off. And they’ll end up in a cat-fight, you know how wimmen are, hee-hee! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/64 "2017-05-16T15:23:05Z")
They typically wind up in a “cat fight” to avoid the visual of a superhero punching some woman in the face. Remember how worked up some people got about that billboard of Big Purple Guy grabbing Mystique by the throat and equating it to domestic violence? That’s why the women typically fight the women or, if it must be a mixed-gender fight, it’s usually not a melee battle. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/65 "2017-05-16T15:46:40Z")
There’s no reason why there couldn’t have been actors of other ethnicities in the LOTR movies and objections on the order of “But it’s based on European Mythology” or “Tolkien was envisioning white people” are kind of embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/66 "2017-05-16T15:52:53Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > And then there’s Gollum- in _The Hobbit_ he’s black with shining eyes, but in _Lord of the Rings_ he’s described as black in some places and white in others. Wait a minute…Gollum was really Michael Jackson??? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/67 "2017-05-16T15:53:31Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > See post 18. Oops. Well, like I said: always relevant, always wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/68 "2017-05-16T16:11:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s no reason why there couldn’t have been actors of other ethnicities in the LOTR movies and objections on the order of “But it’s based on European Mythology” or “Tolkien was envisioning white people” are kind of embarrassing. LeGuin was invisioning brown people when she wrote Earthsea. That was specifically a point she was making in writing it. Are complaints that SyFy whitewashed her work also embarrassing objections? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/69 "2017-05-16T16:23:21Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s no reason why there couldn’t have been actors of other ethnicities in the LOTR movies and objections on the order of “But it’s based on European Mythology” or “Tolkien was envisioning white people” are kind of embarrassing. Not really, no. Unless you have a decent argument about why its embarrassing to craft your film around the source material. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/70 "2017-05-16T16:27:30Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Not really, no. Unless you have a decent argument about why its embarrassing to craft your film around the source material. I’m a little weirded out at your implication that casting a non-white actor as one of the characters from LOTR would have resulted in a film ‘not’ crafted around the source material. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/71 "2017-05-16T16:29:28Z")
I’m not sure why but, sure, go with that. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/72 "2017-05-16T16:35:11Z")
What negative effect would it have had on the movie if the average melanin count of the fellowship were a little higher? How would it have changed the narrative? I say, it would have been absolutely fine. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/73 "2017-05-16T16:43:53Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > What negative effect would it have had on the movie if the average melanin count of the fellowship were a little higher? How would it have changed the narrative? I say, it would have been absolutely fine. Sure. And if you want to make a LotR film with a more diverse cast, go for it. Won’t get any argument from me. That doesn’t make it wrong to say “This is an English story based in Northern myths and set in pseudo-Europe\* and I want the cast to reflect that” when someone else makes their version. I’m still not seeing what’s “embarrassing” about it. \*I’m still calling it pseudo-Europe since “really Ancient Europe” or “Alternate History Europe” sounds like it should have cavemen or dinosaurs. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/74 "2017-05-16T16:45:49Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > \*I’m still calling it pseudo-Europe since “really Ancient Europe” or “Alternate History Europe” sounds like it should have cavemen or dinosaurs. What do you think Orcs and fell beasts are? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/75 "2017-05-16T16:47:03Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Sure, but that has nothing to do with LotR. Should a creator attempt to force people to use a particular race? No. Is it wrong for the casting director to choose a particular race in order to stay close to intent? No. The scenario you’re presenting is far different from LotR. I didn’t say it had anything to do with LOTR. What it has to do with, as i made quite clear, was an effort to determine **ITR Champion** ’s level of consistency when it comes to the issue of staying true to the author’s vision for a story. That is, why does **ITR Champion** apparently think it’s important for a movie version of LOTR to remain true to Tolkein’s white European vision of the story, and at the same time NOT think it important for a play that was explicitly written for a multi-ethnic cast to actually have a multi-ethnic cast? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/76 "2017-05-16T16:47:32Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s no reason why there couldn’t have been actors of other ethnicities in the LOTR movies and objections on the order of “But it’s based on European Mythology” or “Tolkien was envisioning white people” are kind of embarrassing. I dislike this type of arguing, where you say “There’s no reason…” when there actually are reasons, just not ones you like or find sufficient. (You even acknowledge some reasons that others have given, but you wave them away, not by saying anything about what’s wrong with them, just by calling them “embarrassing.”) It’s not just what Tolkien was envisioning, but what generations of readers and artists and fans had been envisioning. The filmmakers were very concerned about getting the look of everything and everyone "right"and “authentic.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/77 "2017-05-16T17:25:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I dislike this type of arguing, where you say “There’s no reason…” when there actually are reasons, just not ones you like or find sufficient. Well then, let me rephrase. "It’s not just what Tolkien was envisioning, but what generations of readers and artists and fans had been envisioning. The filmmakers were very concerned about getting the look of everything and everyone "right"and “authentic.” is racist hooey. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/78 "2017-05-16T17:37:22Z")
Well, I’m convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/79 "2017-05-16T17:59:11Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well then, let me rephrase. > > "It’s not just what Tolkien was envisioning, but what generations of readers and artists and fans had been envisioning. The filmmakers were very concerned about getting the look of everything and everyone "right"and “authentic.” is racist hooey. Unfortunately for your credibility, we DO know what Tolkien was envisioning. He was envisioning an English mythology, drawing from Anglo-Saxon/Nordic influences. He wrote a lot of letters about it. And then his son compiled the entire development of the Legendarium with scholarly thoroughness. Which the filmmakers referred to, because of their concerns about getting the look of the movies correct. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/80 "2017-05-16T19:06:31Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Unfortunately for your credibility, we DO know what Tolkien was envisioning. He was envisioning an English mythology, drawing from Anglo-Saxon/Nordic influences. He wrote a lot of letters about it. And then his son compiled the entire development of the Legendarium with scholarly thoroughness. Which the filmmakers referred to, because of their concerns about getting the look of the movies correct. None of this implies that characters in said mythology must necessarily be white. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482.md?page=5)