# Diversity Casting & the LOTR movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482 "2017-05-12T21:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/81 "2017-05-16T19:29:50Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Unfortunately for your credibility, we DO know what Tolkien was envisioning. He was envisioning an English mythology, drawing from Anglo-Saxon/Nordic influences. He wrote a lot of letters about it. And then his son compiled the entire development of the Legendarium with scholarly thoroughness. Which the filmmakers referred to, because of their concerns about getting the look of the movies correct. Christopher Tolkien is very picky. No matter what you do he’ll find fault. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/82 "2017-05-16T21:34:55Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > None of this implies that characters in said mythology must necessarily be white. Well, sure, there are indications that in Shakespeare’s time there were a few people of recent African descent (that is, “black”) in London, but if you picked any random Londoner out of a crowd the odds would be extremely high that that person would be white rather than white. So no, Tolkien’s characters are not _necessarily_ white, but whiteness would seem to be of a high likelihood. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/83 "2017-05-16T23:31:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > So you think that because Tolkein “had in mind” a largely white, European vision for LOTR, it would be inappropriate to mess with that in the name of ethnic diversity. I’d be interested to know, as a general matter of principle, when the intentions of an author are, and are not, important to you in the casting process. > > For example, about 18 months ago was had a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=775782) about a Pennsylvania college that was forced to cancel the production of a play after the playwright objected to the fact that white actors were to be used in roles that the playwright had intended for people of color. In that thread, you were critical of the playwright’s decision, and you said:If you believe that this is true, why would you be at all concerned if LOTR had, indeed, been populated by a multi-ethnic cast? > > Why is it “not a bad thing” for us to have an almost-all-white LOTR because that’s what Tolkein envisioned, but a bad thing for an actual living playwright to enforce a condition of multi-ethnic casting in the licensing of his own intellectual property? What I said was that I would not personally look forward to seeing LOTR redone with Disney-style token representation of a numerous racial groups. That’s my opinion. I don’t see anything wrong with that type of casting, I don’t try to prevent it from happening, I don’t engage in trolling of the actors involved, all I do is fail to be enthusiastic. And that’s not saying much, because I’m not enthusiastic about the enormous majority of movies or pop culture regardless of the race of the people involved. But if Disney or any other studio decides to “reboot” LOTR with a multi-racial cast and there’s a large audience that wants that sort of thing and it becomes a hit, that’s fine with me. That would be capitalism in action. I am opposed to attacks on anyone, solely because they were cast in a certain role and the attackers think they were the wrong race. [Which](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/doctor-strange-whitewashing-an-open-letter-tilda-swinton-958212) [happens](https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/18/11455160/ghost-in-the-shell-scarlett-johansson-hollywood-casting) frequently, of course. My statement about LOTR is a personal aesthetic view, which I have no right or expectation that anyone else will hold. But those who attack white actresses for starring in non-white roles are attacking people and implying that something morally wrong was done. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/84 "2018-12-25T17:26:35Z")
Lol, last night my daughter found a black person in ROTK: > ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/85 "2018-12-26T03:17:38Z")
As an aside, someone asked about the possibility of interbreeding between (say) humans and halflings. One of Tolkien’s letters takes the view that hobbits were, fundamentally, a branch of humanity (part of Illuvatar’s final theme, able to transcend the Music, leave the World for parts unknown when they die, etc.). This would actually make hobbits and humans more closely related than either is to elves or dwarves, or than any of them is to the maia, and we know that it’s possible (though rare) for humans and elves to interbreed, as well as elves and maia. So yes, there may well have been a few three-quarters-lings running around in Bree, or other places where they mingled. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/86 "2018-12-26T03:48:51Z")
Tolkien also wrote that one swig of the appropriate magic booze can turn a human into an elf, and that some (half-?)elves can choose to be mortal just by thinking about it, so if there is any difference between man and elf, it seems to be purely mystical; they are biologically identical. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/87 "2018-12-26T05:12:37Z")
No one gonna mention how Arwen was elevated for the sake of diversity…? Romance story too. LOTR was superbly cast. You start casting for diversity sake and you run into landmines. How about we make Sam…from India? Ohhhh now we just made the “manservant” a POC. We’ve already heard how it was distasteful to make the bad guys POC. So who are we talking about here??? Cause almost all the roles were perfectly cast. And some of the lesser roles you might recast are related to the perfectly cast ones. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/88 "2018-12-26T05:14:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Lol, last night my daughter found a black person in ROTK: > > [https://twitter.com/JohnT15/status/1077349842228269056?s=19](https://twitter.com/JohnT15/status/1077349842228269056?s=19) Lol…theres actually tons of POC in the show. Mostly as bad guys, stunt men, long shot doubles. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/89 "2018-12-26T15:42:31Z")
Where did he ever write of magic booze turning a human into an elf? And Luthien was a really special case. Her becoming counted among the ranks of humans was not merely magical, but miraculous. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/90 "2018-12-26T20:45:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Where did he ever write of magic booze turning a human into an elf? I believe it is this drink mentioned in _The Book of Lost Tales:_ > [@](#): > > ‘But have you not all heard him many times and often, that dwell here,’ said Eriol, ‘yet do not seem to me like those who live with a longing that is half understood and may not be fulfilled.’ > ‘Nor do we so, for we have limpe,’ said she, ‘limpe that alone can cure, and a draught of it giveth a heart to fathom all music and song.’ > > ‘Then,’ said Eriol, ‘would I might drain a goblet of that good drink’; but Vaire told him that that might only be if he sought out Meril the queen. > > […] > > Then said she smiling: ‘Welcome, O mariner of many seas — wherefore do you seek the pleasure of my quiet gardens and their gentle noise, when the salt breezes of the sea and the snuff of winds and a swaying boat should rather be your joy?’ > > For a while Eriol might say nought thereto, being tongue-tied by the beauty of that lady and the loveliness of that place of flowers; yet at length he muttered that he had known sea enough, but of this most gracious land he might never be sated. ‘Nay,’ said she, 'on a day of autumn will come the winds and a driven gull, maybe, will wail overhead, and lo! you will be filled with desire, remembering the black coasts of your home." ‘Nay, lady,’ said Eriol, and now he spoke with eager voice, 'nay, not so, for the spirit that flutes upon twilit lawns has filled my heart with music, and I thirst for a draught of limpe! ’ > > Then straightway did the smiling face of Meril grow grave, and bidding her maidens depart she prayed Eriol follow her to a space nigh to the house, and this was of cool grass but not very short. Fruit-trees grew there, and about the roots of one, an apple-tree of great girth and age, the soil was piled so that there was now a broad seat around its bole, soft and grass-covered. There sat Meril and she gazed upon Eriol and said: 'Know you then what it is that you ask? ’ and he said: 'I know nought save that I desire to know the soul of every song and of all music and to dwell always in fellowship and kinship with this wondrous people of the Eldar of the Isle, and to be free of unquenchable longing even till the Faring Forth, even till the Great End! ’ > > But Meril said: ‘Fellowship is possible, maybe, but kinship not so, for Man is Man and Elda Elda, and what Iluvatar has made unalike may not become alike while the world remains. Even didst thou dwell here till the Great End and for the health of limpe found no death, yet then must thou die and leave us, for Man must die once. And hearken, O Eriol, think not to escape unquenchable longing with a draught of limpe — for only wouldst thou thus exchange desires, replacing thy old ones with new and deeper and more keen. Desire unsatisfied dwells in the hearts of both those races that are called the Children of Iluvatar, but with the Eldar most, for their hearts are filled with a vision of beauty in great glory.’ ‘Yet, O Queen,’ said Eriol thereto, ‘let me but taste of this drink and become an agelong fellow of your people: O queen of the Eldalie, that I may be as the happy children of Mar Vanwa Tyalieva.’ ‘Nay, not yet can I do that,’ said Meril, 'for ‘tis a graver matter far to give this drink to one who has known life and days already in the lands of Men than for a child to drink who knows but little else; yet even these did we keep a long while ere we gave them the wine of song, teaching them first much lore and testing their hearts and souls. Therefore I bid you now bide still longer and learn all that you may in this our isle. Lo, what do you know of the world, or of the ancient days of Men, or of the roots which those things that now are have far back in time, or what of the Eldalie and all their wisdom, that you should claim our cup of youth and poesy?’ > > ‘The tongue of Tol Eressea do I know, and of the Valar have I heard, and the great world’s beginning, and the building of Valinor; to musics have I hearkened and to poesy and the laughter of the Elves, and all I have found true and good, and my heart knows and it saith to me that these shall I always henceforth love, and love alone’ — thus answered Eriol, and his heart was sore for the refusal of the Queen. > > 'Yet nothing do you know of the coming of the Elves, of the fates wherein they move, nor their nature and the place that Iluvatar has given to them. Little do you reck of that great splendour of their home in Eldamar upon the hill of Kôr, nor all the sorrow of our parting. What know you of our travail down all the dark ways of the world, and the anguish we have known because of Melko; of the sorrows we have suffered, and do yet, because of Men, of all the fears that darken our hopes because of Men? Know you the wastes of tears that lie between our life in Tol Eressea and that time of laughter that we knew in Valinor? O child of Men who wouldst be sharer of the fates of the Eldalie, what of our high desires and all those things we look for still to be — for lo! if you drink this drink all these must you know and love, having one heart with us — nay, even at the Faring Forth, should Eldar and Men fall into war at the last, still must you stand by us against the children of your kith and kin, but until then never may you fare away home though longings gnaw you — and the desires that at whiles consume a full-grown man who drinketh limpe are a fire of unimagined torture — knew you these things, O Eriol, when you fared hither with your request? ’ though from that passage it is not clear what this drink exactly does besides give the gifts of skaldicity, youth/health, and immortality. > [@](#): > > And Luthien was a really special case. Her becoming counted among the ranks of humans was not merely magical, but miraculous. OK, but OTOH the handy Wikipedia list of Half-Elves lists at least Elros and Arwen as also somehow choosing to be mortal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/91 "2018-12-26T22:16:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Since Tolkien intended Middle-earth to be a long-ago precursor to what we now know of as Europe, it’s hardly surprising that all the stars of the Jackson movies were white. Well, except since this thread started, we now know [a bit more](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42939192) about European prehistory and how it relates to skin tone… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/92 "2018-12-26T22:40:39Z")
That passage is quite clear that the limpe does _not_ turn a human into an elf, even if it gives immortality and an Elvish appreciation of beauty. And the half-elves, remember, are also half-human. That’s not one race choosing to be the other; that’s someone of ambiguous status choosing to resolve the ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/93 "2018-12-26T23:10:22Z")
Should I be offended that all the orcs spoke Kiwi English? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/94 "2018-12-27T17:54:20Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Should I be offended that all the orcs spoke Kiwi English? Hey, min. I’m Uglúk. This is Grishnákh. We’re gonna dine on manflesh. Wanna come? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/95 "2018-12-27T19:33:36Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Hey, min. I’m Uglúk. This is Grishnákh. We’re gonna dine on manflesh. Wanna come? That was hilarious. I could absolutely hear the accent in my hid. or i should say, “I culd hear the accent…in my hid?” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/96 "2018-12-27T20:25:35Z")
Not Orcs, but: [Bad Taste - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Taste) (btw Tolkien described at least some orcs as “swarthy” and having bad teeth; darkness, shadows, and the absence of light are associated to Evil in his stories) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482/97 "2018-12-27T21:14:02Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > That was hilarious. I could absolutely hear the accent in my hid. or i should say, “I culd hear the accent…in my hid?” Reference: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/G7f82TNnqBQ/hqdefault.jpg "HEY MEN IM KORG WANNA COME") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7f82TNnqBQ) That’s Taika Watiti [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-casting-the-lotr-movies/786482.md?page=4)