# Diversity in Marvel Comics **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364 "2017-04-13T07:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/181 "2017-04-23T05:36:12Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Politics aside… that art is horrendous and should be nuked from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. Agreed, and nicely tied into the theme with the facehugger. ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/182 "2017-04-24T04:31:05Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > Comics very often see a drop in sales after a #1 issue, so by itself that’s not surprising. On the same list I see that the _Star Lord_ comic was in 176th place with 12,761 copies sold. He’s a white male character with more name recognition than Ms. Marvel, given the Guardians of the Galaxy movie. I don’t think ‘diversity’ is a good blanket explanation of sales figures. > > One more comment for context, at the moment DC is generally on an upswing in terms of sales and Marvel on a downswing. Some of this may just be DC improving after undoing a lot of its problematic new 52 stuff, but it’s a competitive industry and one succeeding tends to take away sales from the other. > > Lots of comics fail for lots of reasons. From what I’ve read from the set of industry commentators who would generally default to cheering for ‘diversity’, the recent Marvel additions were a bit of a mixed bag, mostly coming back to the core quality of writing and possibly editorial mandates. The new Wolverine and the new Thor, for example, are thought to have been introduced more organically in the stories and thus had relatively good receptions, whereas the new Iron not-a-Man abruptly appeared in the story with very little narrative preparation. The perception was that there was a sudden editorial mandate for ‘diversity’ for the character and that the story suffered for it. > > So it appears ‘diversity’ is neither a kiss of death nor a panacea that cures all low sales ills. It all comes back to whether the stories are any good, which is as it should be. The link in the OP identified the slow or heritage-respectful introductions of the new characters in Wolverine and Thor: X-23 had been around for over a decade before taking on the mantle, and Jane Foster had been in the stories from the very beginning. I keep thinking of the debacle that the introduction of Kyle Rayner in Green Lantern in the last 90s. Established and respected character suddenly goes nuts. New character gets lucky finding a Guardian in a night club alley. New character happens to be half-Hispanic and has no back story. Massive schism in readership, and very loud voices of ridicule. But when John Stewart took over the role in 1988(?) when Len Wein was writing GL, there were no real complaints because Stewart had been part of the GL mythos since 1974-ish. So, yes, the stories should be good, but also the lead-in should be long and the characters known. James Rhodes (black) could take over the mantle of Iron Man, as the character did in the past because Rhodes has been in the Iron Man mythos for decades, but this too new, black, female character will certainly fail. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/183 "2017-04-24T10:46:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Now this guy was harmless and meant well and I didn’t hold any of that against him, although I made a point of letting him know where I was born, surrounded by Midwestern corn stalks. Wouldn’t a hospital maternity ward have been more hygienic? 😃 > [@](#): > > However, it was also quite disturbing in a way, because it showed that regardless of the fact that I am and have always been an American, there are people who will always assume that I don’t belong. And some of them might not be harmless slightly goofy guys mistakenly wanting to welcome an outsider. > > No one will ever do that to a white person. That is the thought that rang through my head. A white guy who otherwise has a background much like mine will never be subject to that assumption. It’s disturbing. It’s alienating. It is. And it’s true. As a white Anglophone immigrant to the UK I find that many people here (those not paying close attention to my accent) assume I’m native-born. I blend in easily so I don’t set off “otherness” triggers. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/184 "2017-04-24T13:16:40Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > Nope. I wasn’t hiding a question “behind aggressive sarcasm.” So I was correct in not thinking that “The question is…”, unlike Miller who thought there was a question behind the aggressive sarcasm. > [@Pantastic](#): > > Actually, a black Superman or Captain America would bother me, because the traditional story for both of them has their origin in a time where being black would radically alter their ‘early years’ story and how they were received by the public. > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen anything to suggest that the “All-American” trope is, in and of itself, specifically intrinsic to the mythology, such that making Superman non-white would ruin the character. If you believe otherwise, I’d like to know why? Since I never claimed that making super-man non-white would ruin the character, I have no idea why you’re pulling the “If you believe otherwise” schtick here. It’s especially divorced from reality since I specifically said in my original “If they’re doing a modern origin I wouldn’t have a problem with it…” and clearly (as I quoted above) stated that what would bother me is switching the race without addressing the effect of that race on his reception by other people. > [@Acsenray](#): > > The idea that All-America means white or rural American means white or farmer means white are all pretty much part of racist majoritarian culture. Which is why I think that a superman story set in a location and time with a racist majoritarian culture would either have to be different or would be obviously ignoring a major piece of the background if he ‘happened’ not to look like the majoritarian race. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/185 "2017-04-24T17:42:36Z")
At this point “What if Superman were black?” should be considered a trope since it’s been done so many times now both literally and figuratively. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/186 "2017-04-24T18:49:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m cool with that, but shouldn’t it work both ways? Seems like a lot of people lost their damn minds when Tilda Swinton was cast as The Ancient One. :dubious: No. Because white people are not hurting for roles in Hollywood. There are no equivalents with the majority race and any minority race. As a white person, I have no ethnic identity associated with my race. I just don’t. I literally do not ever think about the fact that I am white except in this sort of discussion. No, you can’t celebrate being white, since that has absolutely no meaning other than “I’m not a person of color.” There is nothing else there. There is nothing to celebrate. The only reason why minorities celebrate their race is because they have a shared cultural history, and they come together against the majority. We have nothing of the sort. White is just the word for “you are accepted as the default race.” It’s like trying to have heterosexual pride. There’s nothing there. There’s no shared history to celebrate. There’s no oppression to celebrate fighting. There’s just nothing there but people getting jealous of minorities and wanting their own. I can celebrate my Scottish heritage. I can celebrate Southern heritage (as long as I leave out the racism/sexism). I can celebrate the fights for people with mental disorders. I cannot celebrate that I am white, straight, or even male. There’s just nothing to celebrate when you are the cultural default. Or, to put it another way, being the default means I’m already celebrated, and thus I have no reason to celebrate myself. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/187 "2017-04-24T19:02:42Z")
There is a difference between changing the race/gender/sexuality of characters and the legacies, sure. But some people want to discuss when it’s okay to change a character’s race. I don’t think being a main character is the limit. The issue is simply whether or not they could believably have the same story. Peter Parker? Yeah, he basically could. Bruce Wayne? Not really. You might be able to pull it off if the Waynes adopt him, but then there’d be legitimacy problems that Bruce Wayne would need to deal with–is he really their kid? If you change his parents’ race, though, then the context of their shooting changes. Superman needs to crash in a podunk town in the middle of the whiter part of America, and be adopted without anyone batting an eye. Yeah, he probably has to stay white. You change it, and Clark Kent is different. (Also, the more modern you make Superman, the less that origin works.) I’d argue Dick Grayson could be pretty much any race, though. I don’t think you can make him female, as that would make Batgirl seem weird. (You can make Robin female, as we all know.) My point is that the line is really just “what would work with the character that’s been established in the public consciousness?” Yes, that makes secondary characters easier, since they may not have established much in the public consciousness. But there are others that can be changed, too. Of course, reality with the racial problems in Hollywood means there’s no reason whitewash. The goal is more diversity, not less. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/188 "2017-04-24T19:04:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, you can’t celebrate being white, since that has absolutely no meaning other than “I’m not a person of color.” There is nothing else there. There is nothing to celebrate. > > The only reason why minorities celebrate their race is because they have a shared cultural history, and they come together against the majority. We have nothing of the sort. White is just the word for “you are accepted as the default race.” I just don’t agree. Han Chinese can be proud of their historical civilization and its achievements. As can Egyptians. As can Arabs. As can Mayans. As can Indians (South Asians). And so can Northern Europeans, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/189 "2017-04-24T19:05:40Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I’m sorry I peed in your Cheerios, foolsguinea. You take this way more seriously than you should. This is always a bad argument. It basically implies you have no counterargument. What you are saying is that things shouldn’t change since the last time you read a comic, which is just an arbitrary point. The passion in which an argument is stated has no indication of its merit. I do not know why this dodge is so often seen as effective. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/190 "2017-04-24T19:42:35Z")
**SlackerInc** , a person can be proud of being Scottish, or Scandinavian, or German, or French, just as much as a different person can be proud of being Han, Egyptian, Arabian, or Mayan. But I don’t think there’s really any legitimate “pride in being northern European”, or “northern European civilization”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/191 "2017-04-24T21:36:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **SlackerInc** , a person can be proud of being Scottish, or Scandinavian, or German, or French, just as much as a different person can be proud of being Han, Egyptian, Arabian, or Mayan. But I don’t think there’s really any legitimate “pride in being northern European”, or “northern European civilization”. And that leads directly into being proud of your “Aryan” heritage. As so many white supremacists are. That’s a road nobody should want to go down again. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/192 "2017-04-24T21:53:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **SlackerInc** , a person can be proud of being Scottish, or Scandinavian, or German, or French, just as much as a different person can be proud of being Han, Egyptian, Arabian, or Mayan. But I don’t think there’s really any legitimate “pride in being northern European”, or “northern European civilization”. Why then don’t you similarly caution Arabs to limit their pride to being Lebanese, Saudi, etc.? > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And that leads directly into being proud of your “Aryan” heritage. As so many white supremacists are. That’s a road nobody should want to go down again. Speaking of roads, they also liked Autobahns, and VWs. Hitler was fond of dogs. Do we have to swear off all those things too? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/193 "2017-04-24T22:51:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Speaking of roads, they also liked Autobahns, and VWs. Hitler was fond of dogs. Do we have to swear off all those things too? :rolleyes: Dogs and VWs are things. “Aryan heritage” is entirely imaginary, created for no purpose other than to denigrate and diminish others. It continues to exist today solely for those reasons. I’m comfortable with denouncing it as racist nonsense and any current supremacist practitioners as monsters. You want to take another swing at that pitch? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/194 "2017-04-24T23:08:17Z")
I’m German, French, Irish, Welsh, English, and Swedish (plus 1/8 Native American). I have pale skin, blue eyes, and pride in my Northern European heritage. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/195 "2017-04-25T00:04:26Z")
You don’t have pride in your Northern European heritage, because you don’t have a Northern European heritage. You have German heritage, and French heritage, and all the rest. Your Irish ancestors weren’t eating sauerkraut, and your German ancestors weren’t eating colcannon, because they were part of two different heritages. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/196 "2017-04-25T00:23:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > This is always a bad argument. It basically implies you have no counterargument. I wasn’t trying to make a good argument there, champ. I was responding to someone who had grown hostile for no reason I could discern. People who do that don’t really deserve any good argument from me. > [@](#): > > What you are saying is that things shouldn’t change since the last time you read a comic, which is just an arbitrary point. We’re talking about arbitrary tastes here. So, yeah. I’ll cop to it being an arbitrary point. > [@](#): > > The passion in which an argument is stated has no indication of its merit. I do not know why this dodge is so often seen as effective. Passion is fine. Being an asshole isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/197 "2017-04-25T01:26:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m German, French, Irish, Welsh, English, and Swedish (plus 1/8 Native American). I have pale skin, blue eyes, and pride in my Northern European heritage. 😛 My father was Prussian. You may now proceed to worship me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/198 "2017-04-25T01:36:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m German, French, Irish, Welsh, English, and Swedish (plus 1/8 Native American). I have pale skin, blue eyes, and pride in my Northern European heritage. 😛 I’m sure it’s just coincidence that you happen to believe that pale skinned, light eyed northern Europeans and Asians have superior genes for high intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/199 "2017-04-25T01:51:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You don’t have pride in your Northern European heritage, because you don’t have a Northern European heritage. You have German heritage, and French heritage, and all the rest. Your Irish ancestors weren’t eating sauerkraut, and your German ancestors weren’t eating colcannon, because they were part of two different heritages. They are all basically Vikings. Again, how does this differ from Arabs having a heritage that stretches across several countries? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/200 "2017-04-25T13:57:37Z")
No, they all have some measure of Viking blood, but they’re a lot more non-Viking than Viking, except possibly in the Swedish. And Arabs might not be the best-defined group, either, but they at least have a common language and a common religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364.md?page=11)