# Diversity in Marvel Comics
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [April 13, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364 "2017-04-13T07:50:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/41 "2017-04-14T01:01:38Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> Slightly off-topic, but I can’t help wondering if that also has something to do with Marvel not owning his movie rights. No reason to make someone else rich promoting their film character.
Marvel also does not have the movie rights to Laura/X-23. She’s part of the X-Men rights… which is why she shows up in the latest Wolverine movie, after all.
_All-New Wolverine_ has consistently been one of Marvel’s strongest-selling books. They’re making money on her character, even if it also promotes someone else’s film character.
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/42 "2017-04-14T01:12:40Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> Miss Marvel and Spiderman are not new heroes, not sure who Sam Alexander is. The names they use are the ENTIRE point, you say Spiderman and the 25 people who still read comic books are the only ones who’ll think of Miles Morales. At the end of the day everyone knows who Captain America, Thor and Spiderman are supposed to be, and they are not Falcon, Jane Foster and Miles Morales. Letting Iron Man be a black female for a little while is not real diversity, it’s simply marking of a checklist so they can say “we did it guys!” high-five each other and then put everything back to normal.
Or maybe the reason why they keep putting things back to “normal”\* is because whiny fanboys gripe, moan and complain, until they go, “Fine! If we bring Peter Parker back, will you just shut the fuck up?!”
I tend to be of the opinion, for example, that Marvel using _Iron Man_ to debut and establish Riri Williams as a character was the best available option. For all the rhetoric and lip service about how they should just create new original characters in their own unique canon, if they actually did that, fanboys wouldn’t buy it. They’d just dismiss the new characters as something that’s “other,” and stick with their faves, and/or criticize them for being cheap copies, which many of them already do, anyway. I also tend to be of the opinion that, if Riri Williams had been Tom Sloane, there wouldn’t have been a tenth of the backlash, but that may be a discussion for a different thread.
It would be one thing if Marvel still printed anthology titles, like _Journey into Mystery_, _Strange Tales_, _Amazing Fantasy_ or _Marvel Premiere_, where they could debut new characters, and give them time to build a dedicated fanbase from there. But, until they bring those back, debuting new characters as “replacements” for established characters is probably the best way to do it… As far as using previously secondary characters as “stand-ins” for protagonists, I have personally found those “reboots” to be much more interesting, particularly Sam Wilson as Captain America. I don’t know, maybe they could bring back _What If…?_, and use it as a limited series for these stories, but that makes it difficult for Marvel to do more than one character at a time.
\*- For differing values of “normal.”
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/43 "2017-04-14T01:41:48Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#):
>
> Or maybe the reason why they keep putting things back to “normal”\* is because whiny fanboys gripe, moan and complain, until they go, “Fine! If we bring Peter Parker back, will you just shut the fuck up?!”
Yeah, I’m sure the plan was to get rid of Tony Stark permanently until comic book neckbeards whined :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/44 "2017-04-14T02:03:53Z")
I don’t like the idea of making established white lead characters black, Hispanic or some other minority. I have no objection to new characters being whatever they’re conceived of as being. I have no objection to secondary characters getting racial makeovers, such as Iris West on the Flash TV series. (Candace Patton, mmmmm.)
I would make an exception for Ferro Lad, because he was conceived as black, by they wouldn’t let Shooter do it back in the '60s.
I also found making “The Ancient One” a white female in the Doctor Strange movie objectionable.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/45 "2017-04-14T03:10:02Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#):
>
> For all the rhetoric and lip service about how they should just create new original characters in their own unique canon, if they actually did that, fanboys wouldn’t buy it.
Characters don’t usually come with built in fanboys as it takes time to gather a fan base. They could easily insert a new character into existing titles as sidekicks, allies, rivals, or something else. Deadpool started out as a villain. Squirrel Girl started out as a joke but has a respectable following these days.
> [@](#):
>
> But, until they bring those back, debuting new characters as “replacements” for established characters is probably the best way to do it… As far as using previously secondary characters as “stand-ins” for protagonists, I have personally found those “reboots” to be much more interesting, particularly Sam Wilson as Captain America.
I think it’s a terrible idea. People are going to watch The Avengers, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, etc., etc. and those that are encouraged to pick up the comics are going to wonder what the hell they’re reading because it’s nothing like what they saw on the big screen. But, then, who cares what I think? I don’t buy comics. They lost me as a customer a while back.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/46 "2017-04-14T04:36:40Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> Miss Marvel and Spiderman are not new heroes, not sure who Sam Alexander is. The names they use are the ENTIRE point, you say Spiderman and the 25 people who still read comic books are the only ones who’ll think of Miles Morales. At the end of the day everyone knows who Captain America, Thor and Spiderman are supposed to be, and they are not Falcon, Jane Foster and Miles Morales. Letting Iron Man be a black female for a little while is not real diversity, it’s simply marking of a checklist so they can say “we did it guys!” high-five each other and then put everything back to normal.
“Miss” Marvel? Seriously?
Look, I didn’t want Sam Wilson to be Captain America, because I liked him as the Falcon, and it was weird at first. But I read some of the comics with him as Cap, and it worked OK, and it was pretty good. Also a new kid is the Falcon now. Steve Rogers, on the other hand, was better off dead than the nonsense they’ve put him through lately.
Sam Alexander is the new Nova. He’s in the Champions with the (T. A.) Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Spider-Man (the young one), the remaining alternate of Cyclops, and one of Vision’s synthezoid kids.
I wildly disagree with the idea that particular trademarks are “supposed to be” particular persons under the mask. I like legacies. If superheroes actually existed, they’d grow old and be replaced like everybody else.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/47 "2017-04-14T04:51:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> I wildly disagree with the idea that particular trademarks are “supposed to be” particular persons under the mask. I like legacies. If superheroes actually existed, they’d grow old and be replaced like everybody else.
And it’s been like that for decades upon decades - particularly for DC. How many Flashes have there been? And Green Lanterns? (that’s not even counting Golden Age in with the Silver Age ones). Multiple Hawkmen. Azrael took over for Batman, and Dick Grayson did too at one point. Plus, how many Robins there have been.
The _characters_ aren’t changing. Tony Stark did not wake up one day and find himself suddenly a minority teenaged girl. Peter Parker did not wake up a Puerto Rican African-American. (I won’t say that Wolverine didn’t wake up and suddenly find himself as a young girl, because Clairemont used to write him and at one point that probably happened.)
Now, _maybe_ all those shrieking voices out in the land of wind and ghosts also shrieked in rage when Flash went from Barry Allen (white dude) to Wally West (white dude) to Bart Allen (brief white kid), and they’re just being consistent in also shrieking when there’s suddenly minorities and women thrown into the same situation. Maybe.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/48 "2017-04-14T04:56:20Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> I think it’s a terrible idea. People are going to watch The Avengers, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, etc., etc. and those that are encouraged to pick up the comics are going to wonder what the hell they’re reading because it’s nothing like what they saw on the big screen. But, then, who cares what I think? I don’t buy comics. They lost me as a customer a while back.
OK, so you admit that you speak from ignorance. Marvel actually does try to make its comics accessible to fans of the movies, at least much of the time. Tony Stark is meant to resemble RDJ now. Phil Coulson was introduced into the comics.
Now, there are a few glaring places where they completely screwed that up and went screaming the other way: The worst is Hydra Cap, which has gained a giant and deserved backlash. I might also add killing off Bruce Banner. Neither of these were popular with the present readership, and I’m not convinced that they were smart moves. I think you could also argue that the recent Mockingbird series \*completely \*lacked synergy with Bobbi’s portrayal on Agents of SHIELD, but I haven’t read enough to say for certain. OK, so that’s three cases of not even seeking fans from other media. Also, Hawkeye, the Vision, and the Scarlet Witch are all pretty different, but that seems to be the movie versions going their own way.
By contrast, even the replacements work for movie fans. Jane Foster is more familiar from the movies than from the comics unless you read Thor comics from before 1980 or so. Sam Wilson is in the movies. Riri Williams isn’t in the movies yet, but they have largely reinvented Tony Stark into movie Tony anyway.
Also, Black Widow finally has her own comic because of the movies; that took a long time. And the modern Guardians of the Galaxy seems to be doing OK as multimedia franchise, even as it tosses a lot of the older bits of the GotG mythos.
It’s an inconsistent mess, but there are good spots. And honestly, the “diverse” spots overlap heavily with the good spots. Sam Wilson as Captain America works OK, even though Nick Spencer’s attempts to write about politics can get silly. Kamala Khan is a genuine breakout character. Al Ewing’s New Avengers was stuffed with latinos and Jews; his Ultimates are pretty black; both series embrace the over-the-top end of super-heroing and do it well. The new Power Man and Iron Fist is both set in a blaxploitation version of Harlem and pretty funny.
But hey, you don’t care. You just want to talk about how ignorant you choose to be instead of finding what’s good in what is admittedly a present glut of Marvel Comics.
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/49 "2017-04-14T05:11:18Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> I wildly disagree with the idea that particular trademarks are “supposed to be” particular persons under the mask. I like legacies. If superheroes actually existed, they’d grow old and be replaced like everybody else.
Agreed. There is no real reason why Tony Stark ‘has’ to be Iron Man, or why Peter Parker ‘has’ to be Spider-Man. Very little about what is intrinsic to the character of Peter Parker is also necessarily intrinsic to the character of Spider-Man. And, for what crossover might exist between the two… it is not necessary for Parker to be the character to possess those qualities.
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/50 "2017-04-14T05:24:01Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> I think it’s a terrible idea. People are going to watch The Avengers, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, etc., etc. and those that are encouraged to pick up the comics are going to wonder what the hell they’re reading because it’s nothing like what they saw on the big screen…
Well, it seems clear to me that they want to be able to tell different stories within the framework of the mythology of established properties, that clearly cannot be told with the existing characters. Some of the stories that they told during the _Superior Spider-Man_ run… you can’t tell those stories with Parker as Spider-Man: it doesn’t work. Some of the stories that they told during the Sam Wilson!Cap run (which I already admitted to liking very much)… you just can’t tell those stories with Rogers as Captain America, and you can’t tell them with an all-new character. And they’re stories that, IMO, deserve to be told.
Like I said, they can serialize _What If…?_, and use that to tell these alternative stories, but that probably restricts their ability to tell those stories to one at a time, which I would totally understand if they found unacceptable. You’re welcome to suggest a better idea for how else they could do that… if you think you have one.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/51 "2017-04-14T05:42:36Z")
kenobi65:
> [@](#):
>
> (And, Jane’s been Thor for nearly three years now, so it’s been something more than a momentary stunt.)
Doc Ock was Spider-Man for about that long, and there was never any doubt that the situation was going to go back to Peter Parker in the role. A stunt is a stunt, even if it’s a long stunt.
(Which is not to say that such a stunt can’t make for an interesting story.)
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/52 "2017-04-14T14:26:05Z")
> [@Lightray](#):
>
> Plus, how many Robins there have been.
[4,286](http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1802).
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/53 "2017-04-14T16:35:27Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> But hey, you don’t care. You just want to talk about how ignorant you choose to be instead of finding what’s good in what is admittedly a present glut of Marvel Comics.
I’m sorry I peed in your Cheerios, foolsguinea. You take this way more seriously than you should.
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### Author:  [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/54 "2017-04-18T02:18:57Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#):
>
> At least in the case of Thor, this story arc has proven to (IMO) be a very interesting, well-done story. It’s not nearly as simple as “Jane Foster is Thor for now,” it’s about how the act of using Mjolnir and becoming Thor is killing Jane. And, it’s about _why_ Thor Odinson (Original Recipe Thor) no longer felt worthy of Mjolnir, and his path to becoming worthy of it once again. (Plus, it presented a pretty cool new origin story for Mjolnir itself.)
>
> So, though I do think it was a publicity stunt, it’s turned out to be a very neat story. (And, Jane’s been Thor for nearly three years now, so it’s been something more than a momentary stunt.)
Entirely agree. And this perhaps gets back to the comment about good writing. Its been done, but its been done exceptionally well. When Jane lifts the hammer (to do something heroic), it forces the chemotherapy out of her body. So when she returns to being Jane, she is sicker than ever. There is an element of self-sacrifice in this which the old Thor - a prince born into the role rather than earning the hammer through merit - never had.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/55 "2017-04-18T03:45:59Z")
Getting back for a moment to the OP. When DC reintroduced a huge clutch of 1940s characters into \*Showcase \*and a few other test titles starting in 1956, they kept the superhero name and the basic power but changed everything else about them. Flash wasn’t the old Flash. Green Lantern wasn’t the old Green Lantern. Heck, Robotman of the Doom Patrol wasn’t the old Robotman even though both had human brains in robot bodies.
That worked amazingly well, although the reason it could was that no significant population of aging comic book readers existed. The field not only could start afresh, it could start over with a young teen-age audience and not have to appeal to adult sensibilities. And supposedly the characters were in response to what readers wrote in requesting, which is why the first three \*Showcases \*starred “Fire Fighters,” Kings of the Wild," and “The Frogmen.” It’s eerily possible that we could have had a Watchman-like situation and kids would read pirate comics.
I have to throw in one pet peeve. _Seduction of the Innocent_ didn’t kill off superheroes. For one thing, it didn’t appear until 1954 and superheroes had been dying since the end of WWII. The industry already suffered from years of bad publicity and various governmental inquiries. The reason, in fact, why the gruesome crime and horror comics Wertham loved to dwell on were so numerous was that they were the replacement for superheroes.
If _Seduction of the Innocent_ had any power, it would have killed off Batman and Robin with the “wish dream of two homosexuals living together” commentary. But Batman had long since been remade into a detective, honored by the police and public, working in the daytime solving whodunit mystery plots. That sanitizing saved him and Superman and made them as untouchable as Disney characters. The rebooted DC characters from 1956 on were just as sunny. Darker strips like the _Doom Patrol_ never became more than cult classics and didn’t outlive the 60s.
Comics don’t sell today because when they sold in the millions it was to kids who had few other entertainment options and virtually no other ones they could afford and keep to themselves. Comics haven’t been for young kids for decades. They became faddish for adults a few times since and sold hugely. That could still happen again, I suppose, but it’s increasingly unlikely because there is literally no mass niche for them to fill.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/56 "2017-04-18T04:06:18Z")
Good points, **Exapno**.
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> I think it’s a terrible idea. People are going to watch The Avengers, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, etc., etc. and those that are encouraged to pick up the comics are going to wonder what the hell they’re reading because it’s nothing like what they saw on the big screen. But, then, who cares what I think? I don’t buy comics. They lost me as a customer a while back.
I share your puzzlement that they don’t seek synergy with the movie franchises, but like you I stopped reading comics years ago.
One thing that occurs to me. You hear from black comics fans that it’s important for black people to be able to see heroes they can identify with. Makes total sense. But can’t that also be true for white people, without it meaning they are bigots? And there are still a whole lot more white than black people in this country. So if you need to keep most heroes white to maintain sales, that’s not necessarily a terrible thing in a predominantly white country.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/57 "2017-04-18T04:26:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> One thing that occurs to me. You hear from black comics fans that it’s important for black people to be able to see heroes they can identify with. Makes total sense. But can’t that also be true for white people, without it meaning they are bigots?
So you’re saying Caucasians in America need…
White pride? 😃
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/58 "2017-04-18T04:31:12Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> So you’re saying Caucasians in America need…
>
> White pride? 😃
I do wish that could be a thing, without implying hate of nonwhites.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/59 "2017-04-18T04:51:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I do wish that could be a thing, without implying hate of nonwhites.
What’s preventing them from taking it in the umpteen billion characters that already exist, especially since they’ll have the default in any character created from now on for the foreseeable future?
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/60 "2017-04-18T05:09:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> One thing that occurs to me. You hear from black comics fans that it’s important for black people to be able to see heroes they can identify with. Makes total sense. But can’t that also be true for white people, without it meaning they are bigots?
Won’t someone please think of the [del]children[/del] white people? :dubious:
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