# Diversity in Marvel Comics
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [April 13, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364 "2017-04-13T07:50:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/81 "2017-04-18T20:08:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I’m cool with that, but shouldn’t it work both ways? Seems like a lot of people lost their damn minds when Tilda Swinton was cast as The Ancient One. :dubious:
Sure – and in an ideal society, it would without complaint. But in this society, it most commonly works in one direction – white actors and actresses playing roles that very easily could be played by non-white actors and actresses. IMO, it’s the duty of decent people in entertainment (and other fields, for that matter) to actively fight against this type of thing by finding ways to include and cast more diverse people in their projects.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/82 "2017-04-18T20:13:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Quoth **SlackerInc** :
>
> Couldn’t they do a lot better with cross-promotion or synergy or whatever you want to call it, and have little 15-second ads for the comics at the beginning or end of the movie? Even after the credits would work, since people stick around for post-credit scenes.
Look at **Exapno Mapcase** ’s numbers again. Even if they doubled the comic-reading market, it’d be a barely noticeable blip in the total profit numbers.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/83 "2017-04-18T20:17:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> It also strikes me that they would be wise to have a line of Marvel Cinematic Universe comic books, since they have so many different realities anyway.
They do. They sell like crap.
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/84 "2017-04-18T20:20:47Z")
> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> … It’s different than someone like Spider Man, who keeps his skin covered, or Batman who is a menacing outsider (in most timelines), **or Aqua-Man who is represented as coming from a different race entirely** , I think that being a ‘majority-race American’ is a pretty key part of Superman’s story…
Entirely unlike the alien Kal-El, right?
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/85 "2017-04-18T20:43:37Z")
> [@Lightray](#):
>
> They do. They sell like crap.
Interesting…but they are not promoting them to moviegoers. I have seen 90% of the MCU movies and I had no idea these comics existed.
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/86 "2017-04-18T21:00:11Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#):
>
> Entirely unlike the alien Kal-El, right?
The alien Kal-El that happens to look exactly like a white guy, who lands in a white majority country and happens to look like a poster boy for what the people in power think of the country, yes. I presumed people had at least a passing familiarity with Superman and didn’t need basic backstory explained.
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/87 "2017-04-18T21:13:22Z")
My issue, in case I somehow wasn’t clear, was with the “happens to look exactly like a white guy” part.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/88 "2017-04-18T21:25:26Z")
> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> The alien Kal-El that happens to look exactly like a white guy, who lands in a white majority country and happens to look like a poster boy for what the people in power think of the country, yes. I presumed people had at least a passing familiarity with Superman and didn’t need basic backstory explained.
The question, I think, is how does that make him distinct from the blonde, blue-eyed Aquaman?
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/89 "2017-04-18T21:27:48Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#):
>
> There’ve been a few, including Wolverine (introduced 1974), Deadpool (1991), ad Harley Quinn (1992 in a TV cartoon, 1993 in comic books)
The Punisher should maybe be in the conversation: it’s never a surprise to hear that he has a comic-book series or two up and running, and he’s of course gotten the green light for big-screen movie adaptations and that TV series coming up this year – and plenty of other Marvel properties (a) just aren’t there, and (b) never really got close.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/90 "2017-04-18T21:37:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> The Punisher should maybe be in the conversation: it’s never a surprise to hear that he has a comic-book series or two up and running, and he’s of course gotten the green light for big-screen movie adaptations and that TV series coming up this year – and plenty of other Marvel properties (a) just aren’t there, and (b) never really got close.
Interesting that he and Logan are both ruthless antihero killers, created the same year by Romita, Jr. He’s like the final version (so far) of Jack Kirby.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/91 "2017-04-18T21:39:57Z")
Superman’s race (or rather, apparent race) is relevant, because it affects how he fits in with human society. Aquaman’s apparent race isn’t relevant, because for the most part, he doesn’t fit in with human society.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/92 "2017-04-18T22:30:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Superman’s race (or rather, apparent race) is relevant, because it affects how he fits in with human society. Aquaman’s apparent race isn’t relevant, because for the most part, he doesn’t fit in with human society.
It’s relevant for perhaps some versions of Superman. It certainly isn’t necessary to his character.
You could write about a Superman who is white and his whiteness was important to the way he fit in to American society.
You could write about a Superman who is white but his whiteness isn’t particularly important to the story.
You could write about a non-white Superman.
All are possible. Characters can easily and legitimately be changed a little or a lot in order to serve the needs of a particular story.
And you can see this in the scores of “what if” type stories that have been published. The real point about fiction or mythology is that when it comes right down to it, it’s all “what if.”
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/93 "2017-04-18T23:28:25Z")
I think it’s simpler and less racialized than many of you are making it out to be. Superman can’t be black. He also can’t be blond or redhaired, or have a goatee or long hair. He can’t have a green costume, nor can he eschew the cape. About as much as you can get away with in terms of tinkering with his image is to make the little cowlick of hair in front optional.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/94 "2017-04-18T23:32:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I think it’s simpler and less racialized than many of you are making it out to be. Superman can’t be black. He also can’t be blond or redhaired, or have a goatee or long hair. He can’t have a green costume, nor can he eschew the cape. About as much as you can get away with in terms of tinkering with his image is to make the little cowlick of hair in front optional.
What do you mean by “can’t,” because I suspect that some of these things have actually happened, and that such superficial changes weren’t a factor in whether any particular story was good or bad.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/95 "2017-04-18T23:43:06Z")
I’m talking about the changes the broad public will accept among the truly iconic superheroes. By “broad public” I might have also meant comic readers, back when I was collecting them and titles sold millions of copies. But from the numbers cited here, I’m not talking about the 21st-century print versions. Although I do wonder if some of the wild stuff they have done to try to come up with new storylines has been part of the reason the circulation has become so tiny. Chicken, egg.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/96 "2017-04-18T23:46:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> The Punisher should maybe be in the conversation: it’s never a surprise to hear that he has a comic-book series or two up and running, and he’s of course gotten the green light for big-screen movie adaptations and that TV series coming up this year – and plenty of other Marvel properties (a) just aren’t there, and (b) never really got close.
A fair point on The Punisher; I’ve known a fair number of comic-book fans who really liked him (I never much cared for him). I didn’t realize until now that he’s been around since 1974.
He’s actually already been the subject of three different movies, in [1989](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Punisher_(1989_film)) (starring Dolph Lundgren), [2004](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Punisher_(2004_film))(Thomas Jane), and [2008](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher:_War_Zone) (Ray Stevenson), though all of that was before the MCU, of course.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/97 "2017-04-18T23:50:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I think it’s simpler and less racialized than many of you are making it out to be. Superman can’t be black. He also can’t be blond or redhaired, or have a goatee or long hair. He can’t have a green costume, nor can he eschew the cape. About as much as you can get away with in terms of tinkering with his image is to make the little cowlick of hair in front optional.
[Long haired Superman.](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6xoH967aC00/TMYBbOeD6iI/AAAAAAAAa6g/K8RAu-FpqcM/s1600/reign008.jpg)
[Bearded Superman.](https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Superman-Rebirth-New-Beard.jpg)
[Capeless Superman](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/1281038427778743842.jpg) (also, cowlick-less Superman, which looks way weirder to me than any other version here, but YMMV.)
No green costume I could find, but there’s always [Supermen Red and Blue](http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/images/ElectricBlue2.gif).
Those were all version of the mainline continuity Superman, too, not Elseworlds versions.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/98 "2017-04-19T00:00:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I’m talking about the changes the broad public will accept among the truly iconic superheroes. By “broad public” I might have also meant comic readers, back when I was collecting them and titles sold millions of copies. But from the numbers cited here, I’m not talking about the 21st-century print versions. Although I do wonder if some of the wild stuff they have done to try to come up with new storylines has been part of the reason the circulation has become so tiny. Chicken, egg.
Yeah, this whole argument is just as putrid as the “gay people can’t be _married_, no one would accept that; they can be _something else_” argument was. Here, it’s “Superman can’t be black; black characters should be someone else”. When you say “broad public” we all know who you’re arguing for.
Also:
[Superman](https://images.moviepilot.com/image/upload/c_fill,h_470,q_auto:good,w_620/val-zod-meet-val-zod-the-black-superman-of-earth-2-jpeg-92856.jpg) and [Superman](http://superman.wikia.com/wiki/Calvin_Ellis)
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/99 "2017-04-19T00:24:12Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> [Long haired Superman.](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6xoH967aC00/TMYBbOeD6iI/AAAAAAAAa6g/K8RAu-FpqcM/s1600/reign008.jpg)
>
> [Bearded Superman.](https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Superman-Rebirth-New-Beard.jpg)
>
> [Capeless Superman](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/1281038427778743842.jpg) (also, cowlick-less Superman, which looks way weirder to me than any other version here, but YMMV.)
>
> No green costume I could find, but there’s always [Supermen Red and Blue](http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/images/ElectricBlue2.gif).
>
> Those were all version of the mainline continuity Superman, too, not Elseworlds versions.
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I’m talking about the changes the broad public will accept among the truly iconic superheroes. By “broad public” I might have also meant comic readers, back when I was collecting them and titles sold millions of copies. But from the numbers cited here, I’m not talking about the 21st-century print versions. Although I do wonder if some of the wild stuff they have done to try to come up with new storylines has been part of the reason the circulation has become so tiny. Chicken, egg.
The T-shirt and jeans version powerfully reinforces my point.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/100 "2017-04-19T00:25:59Z")
> [@Lightray](#):
>
> Yeah, this whole argument is just as putrid as the “gay people can’t be _married_, no one would accept that; they can be _something else_” argument was. Here, it’s “Superman can’t be black; black characters should be someone else”. When you say “broad public” we all know who you’re arguing for.
GMAFB. :rolleyes: I also said he can’t be blond.
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