# Diversity in Marvel Comics
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [April 13, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364 "2017-04-13T07:50:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/141 "2017-04-20T13:12:46Z")
I suppose. OTOH there was the Montgomery bus boycott, where just the opposite dynamic was in play.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/142 "2017-04-20T13:17:15Z")
Good lord, I never realized that it was _that_ bad. Sure, comic book shops are often run by folks clueless about social interaction, but I didn’t think they were actively hostile like that.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/143 "2017-04-20T13:37:34Z")
My favorite local comic book store (before I went Marvel Unlimited mostly) is run by folks sensitive to Comic Book Guy stereotypes and how outsiders see them. Their staff is quite diverse, knowledgeable, and courteous.
The _customers_, however, were an argument in favor of abortion rights. They’d linger around, complaining that comics weren’t like they were back when they started buying them (80s or 90s, usually), and bloviating about how the industry needs to be “fixed”. Also, they’d creep on any girls - including the staff. And their bathing was a problem.
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/144 "2017-04-20T13:45:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Good lord, I never realized that it was _that_ bad. Sure, comic book shops are often run by folks clueless about social interaction, but I didn’t think they were actively hostile like that.
It’s not a huge step from “I have no idea how to interact with people outside my immediate clique” to “Whoa, _girls_ aren’t into comic books - what’s your game?!” And, of course, there’s absolutely no reason to believe that being a nerd would make one immune to being racist or homophobic or misogynistic, or any number of other lovely character traits. It’s not like 4chan is this blossoming jungle of acceptance and tolerance, unless we’re talking about tolerance of extremely weird pornography.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/145 "2017-04-20T16:48:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Indeed, this is apparently something of a problem, to the point where [this blog outlining which comic shops are places you could reasonably visit without getting shit for being non-white/LGBT/female](http://haterfreewednesdays.tumblr.com/) is something people feel is worth maintaining. Fucking really. Note the master list, with [several entries struck out as being unsafe spaces](http://haterfreewednesdays.tumblr.com/tagged/unsafe-spaces). Big shocker, a space filled predominately with insular, privileged middle-aged straight white nerds who were raised in a time when being a “nerd” was a very bad thing is not the most welcoming space to other people. Whodathunk it. [Here’s an example](http://haterfreewednesdays.tumblr.com/post/112273075033/cedar-cliff-collectibles-eagan-minnesota):
>
> “Toys new and old…loose and mint. Star wars, star trek, monsters ,GI Joe, **He-man (for the fags)**, Godzilla, marvel, DC, Video game, horror. High end Bowens, Hot toys and sideshow direct dealer ! Non sport and sports cards (also for the fags)…autographs, sketches vintage and new. Ma We also buy from the public…everything we sell and more ! WE PAY CASH.”
>
> Wow. Stay classy. Yeah, a lot of these may seem like small things. “Who are you buying this action figure for?” for example. But given the option to shop somewhere where one’s very existence is treated like a bizarre oddity, and people always assume you’re dumber than you are, I think many people would just as soon not.
>
> So it shouldn’t be seen as a huge surprise that comic books aimed in no small part at the audiences so often treated like shit at traditional comic book stores would have a poor showing at said stores.
I checked the current profile. It reads:
> [@](#):
>
> Toys new and old…loose and mint. Star wars, star trek, monsters ,GI Joe, He-man , Godzilla, marvel, DC, Video game, horror. High end Bowens, Hot toys and sideshow direct dealer ! Non sport and sports cards …autographs, sketches vintage and new. We also buy from the public…everything we sell and more ! WE PAY CASH.
So basically the exact wording minus “for the fags.”
I searched and found only two mentions of the slur, the 2015 one linked to and a 2013 [Yelp review](https://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=204RkOL-Tyfyb7sSaZGj3w).
I would have thought this would gather a lot more comment, especially if it was around for years. It’s so beyond the bounds scummy that it’s hard to credit. There’s a possibility it isn’t true, that somebody added the slurs, or that the profile got hacked. But on the flip side I’d expect to see the store defending itself if any of these is the true case.
Weird.
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/146 "2017-04-20T18:25:56Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The question, I think, is how does that make him distinct from the blonde, blue-eyed Aquaman?
If that was the question, the poster should have asked it. I don’t try to untangle questions hidden behind aggressive sarcasm, because I’ve never had it lead to good discussion, especially if there’s an issue like race involved.
In answer to your question, it makes him distinct to me because people in the stories see Aquaman as being an outsider who comes onto land to fight battles, not as an American hero like Superman, so his race doesn’t have that big of an impact on the stories being told. I’m not aware of any stories where he’s assumed to be an American farmboy that happens to have superpowers, while that’s really part of Superman’s story (despite it not being true in-world), and a black farmer’s kid would result in a very different story. I think you could give Aquaman blue skin without changing his story much, though I’m not all that familiar with him outside of the bad Justice League cartoons that ran when I was a kid.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/147 "2017-04-20T18:36:46Z")
Aquaman is only half-Atlantean. His father was a lighthouse keeper (in America). He grew up on land, in American society; not in Atlantis. He’s no more an outsider than fully-alien Superman, who was also raised in American society.
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/148 "2017-04-20T18:45:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> It doesn’t surprise me that there are shitty people in the world. It does surprise me that people running a comic book shop would be so allergic to money as to treat “new blood” customers like this. Just too much money coming in from the customers they already have?
A lot of comic shops are run as more of a hobby than a business, and the owner really wants a place to be top dog and talk to people like himself rather than make money. Beyond that, businesses routinely get ‘allergic to money’ if it means the owner gets to indulge their prejudices - witness all of the ‘no blacks allowed’ back in the old days, or the huge number of business owners who want to bar LGBT customers today. “Geekdom” often thinks of itself as being inclusive, but my experience is that the ‘geeks’ as a whole are not especially tolerant, and that geek social fallacies tend to reinforce a lot of bad behavior towards women and minorities.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/149 "2017-04-20T18:55:57Z")
> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> A lot of comic shops are run as more of a hobby than a business, and the owner really wants a place to be top dog and talk to people like himself rather than make money.
This makes me think of [_Black Books_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Books).
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/150 "2017-04-20T21:57:19Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> This makes me think of [_Black Books_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Books).
Sounds like an interesting show. I guess it’s like _High Fidelity_ in a way (the book, at least–I haven’t seen the movie).
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> It’s not a huge step from “I have no idea how to interact with people outside my immediate clique” to “Whoa, _girls_ aren’t into comic books - what’s your game?!”
I did think there was some variability in how legitimate the complaints were at that site (and I read quite a few). This comment is reminding me of one in particular (I should have copied it to make sure we’re on the same page in terms of which one) where I thought the person complaining was overreacting a bit. From the way she described it, I understand that if she is a bit introverted she might not have enjoyed someone calling attention to her being the only female in the shop–but it really didn’t sound like there was malice in what the dude said. More like “whoa, we don’t usually get female humans in here–cool!” Along with sort of a group self-deprecating admission that the customers there aren’t exactly chick magnets.
MMV about how comfortable you’re going to feel about someone making an observation like that, but I don’t think it counts as hostility.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/151 "2017-04-20T22:11:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I did think there was some variability in how legitimate the complaints were at that site (and I read quite a few).
Yes, for instance, the person who was upset that someone was wearing a shirt with an image of a facehugger on Rosie the Riveter, called management to complain about it, then became even more upset when the manager didn’t gasp in horror.
> [@](#):
>
> This comment is reminding me of one in particular (I should have copied it to make sure we’re on the same page in terms of which one) where I thought the person complaining was overreacting a bit. From the way she described it, I understand that if she is a bit introverted she might not have enjoyed someone calling attention to her being the only female in the shop–but it really didn’t sound like there was malice in what the dude said.
You mean the one where the guy made a joke about it being like the scene where Penny first walks into the comic shop on TBBT? If so, yeah, I thought that was setting the bar for “unsafe” very, very low, too. (Not to mention the posts complaining about the furniture being dirty and the shelves being disorganized making them “unsafe.” I think some (not all, but some) of the complainers have social dysfunctions as bad as the poorly acting customers/employees in some of the other posts.)
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/152 "2017-04-21T00:25:25Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> Yes, for instance, the person who was upset that someone was wearing a shirt with an image of a facehugger on Rosie the Riveter, called management to complain about it, then became even more upset when the manager didn’t gasp in horror.
Huh, I didn’t see that one as an overreaction. I tend to agree with [this take.](https://diaryofacomicbookgoddess.wordpress.com/2014/03/30/the-misogynist-mashup-of-rosie-the-riveter-and-the-facehugger-from-alien/)
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### Author:  [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/153 "2017-04-21T01:36:42Z")
> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> If that was the question, the poster should have asked it. I don’t try to untangle questions hidden behind aggressive sarcasm, because I’ve never had it lead to good discussion, especially if there’s an issue like race involved.
Nope. I wasn’t hiding a question “behind aggressive sarcasm.” I _was_ being sarcastic, although I would challenge the notion that I was being particularly aggressive. I just don’t find the idea that “being a ‘majority-race American’ is a pretty key part of Superman’s story” to be very compelling. I will stipulate that, the way that Superman has been portrayed for most of the character’s existence could be assumed as the “All-American” archetype, and I will further stipulate that Superman being portrayed as white is a product of when the character was created. What I dispute is the notion that said trope and said whiteness is essential to the mythology of Superman itself.
Using the [Origin of Superman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Superman) Wikipedia entry as a starting point, I have spent parts of the past couple days reading through some of the articles it uses as citations (I’m still waiting on a copy of Superman: The Complete History to become available through my library’s exchange system), and I haven’t seen anything to suggest that the “All-American” trope is, in and of itself, specifically intrinsic to the mythology, such that making Superman non-white would ruin the character. If you believe otherwise, I’d like to know why?
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/154 "2017-04-21T01:43:58Z")
The idea that All-America means white or rural American means white or farmer means white are all pretty much part of racist majoritarian culture.
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### Author:  [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/155 "2017-04-21T02:02:57Z")
> [@Lightray](#):
>
> My favorite local comic book store (before I went Marvel Unlimited mostly) is run by folks sensitive to Comic Book Guy stereotypes and how outsiders see them. Their staff is quite diverse, knowledgeable, and courteous.
>
> The _customers_, however, were an argument in favor of abortion rights. They’d linger around, complaining that comics weren’t like they were back when they started buying them (80s or 90s, usually), and bloviating about how the industry needs to be “fixed”. Also, they’d creep on any girls - including the staff. And their bathing was a problem.
At the risk of the thread evolving into a “what’s your local comic shop like?” discussion, my local comic shop is manned by generally nice guys (all white, all in their late 20s) with one slightly mad but harmless employee who publishes his own comic and heavily promotes it in store.
There are a lot of female customers nowadays - many, many more than there used to be - but as the store is in a basement in a low rent area, it attracts the odd deranged or high passer-by. The female customers do not appear to be harassed by staff. The shop nearly went out of business three years ago so I guess the owners keep a close eye on the bottom line.
The store also refreshingly pushes comics by talented and innovative writers such Hickman and Bennett, by handwritten signs in bright ink recommending the titles and giving a short synopsis. In that regard, the store isn’t on the superhero bandwagon - although customers are hit by a bank of shelves filled with X-Men comics as they descend downstairs. The store has a fair selection of Asian comics, but no European comics other than Tintin and Asterix. And from the prominence (location and volume) of the stock, the shop earnestly pushes Jason Aaron’s female Thor. Whether that title is the drawcard for female readers, I don’t know.
So, endeavouring to steer the conversation back to the topic, I don’t think the customers as a rule fit the stereotype of white middle aged guys (I do) who read about white middle aged guys in costumes with super-powers And subjectively I think the store has benefited from appealing to female readers by being both friendly to female customers and stocking female-friendly content.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/156 "2017-04-21T02:59:33Z")
For many decades, women have consumed entertainment focused on male characters and non-white people have consumed entertainment focused on white characters. Why are white men uniquely unable to deal with stories focused on characters different from them in superficial ways?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/157 "2017-04-21T03:00:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I did think there was some variability in how legitimate the complaints were at that site (and I read quite a few). This comment is reminding me of one in particular (I should have copied it to make sure we’re on the same page in terms of which one) where I thought the person complaining was overreacting a bit. From the way she described it, I understand that if she is a bit introverted she might not have enjoyed someone calling attention to her being the only female in the shop–but it really didn’t sound like there was malice in what the dude said. More like “whoa, we don’t usually get female humans in here–cool!” Along with sort of a group self-deprecating admission that the customers there aren’t exactly chick magnets.
Even if there wasn’t any active malice behind it, there’s still a problem with that comment, and it’s summed up in your last sentence. He’s making a “group self-deprecating” joke that implicitly excludes her from the group. The woman telling the story is a geek. She’s on the Leonard/Raj/Howard side of the scale. But, because she’s got breasts, she’s automatically the Penny - the “normal,” non-geeky character who exists specifically for geeks to explain things to. And, even if it’s not meant in a mean way, it uses the same idea that’s at the core of a lot of very real, very cruel misogyny: that women can’t be “real” geeks, and that they are intruding on a space that by rights should be reserved only for men.
It’s kind of like “blacks have natural rhythm,” or “Jews are good with money.” It may not be said with malice, but it still shows that the person ascribes to a fucked up way of thinking about people who aren’t like them.
That said, putting the shop up on a list of stores that are “unsafe spaces” because a random customer was kind of an asshole is a dick move, too.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/158 "2017-04-21T03:19:15Z")
I can follow that argument a certain distance, but not when you say they are accusing her of intruding. I took it , even through the woman’s own account, as more of a welcoming or celebratory comment than a complaint about intrusion. Like, “hey, a woman is voluntarily hanging out in the same space we are, so maybe we aren’t such losers after all!”
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> For many decades, women have consumed entertainment focused on male characters and non-white people have consumed entertainment focused on white characters. Why are white men uniquely unable to deal with stories focused on characters different from them in superficial ways?
Because we are the default, and they are the Other. Obviously. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/159 "2017-04-21T04:32:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I can follow that argument a certain distance, but not when you say they are accusing her of intruding.
I’m not saying _that particular guy_ viewed her as an unwelcome invader. But his “joke” hinges on treating her as an outsider to geek culture, and that is, at the very least, really fucking annoying. It’s based on the same assumptions that underlie the more obviously misogynistic, “Girls aren’t allowed here,” attitude, even if it’s expressed in a superficially positive manner.
It’s like… imagine meeting a guy with a Hispanic name and dark skin, and immediately launching into a “Welcome to our country! Let me tell you all about our American ways!” And the guy you’re talking to was born in Pasadena. Even though you mean well, you’re still being kind of an asshole by assuming that the guy’s not American. That’s basically what the dude in that anecdote was doing when he talked to that girl. Even if he was being nice about it, he was still treating her like an outsider, just because she was a girl.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2017, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diversity-in-marvel-comics/784364/160 "2017-04-21T04:45:51Z")
Interesting. Another tangent: I actually frequently do issue such “welcome” pronouncements to immigrants I run into at the store or wherever. I do understand there’s some awkwardness there and a risk of seeming patronizing; but when I think about balancing that against what it must be like for them, living in a mostly white rural “heartland”, I feel like the calculus comes out in favor of trying to inject some positivity into what has to be a somewhat nervewracking existence. YMMV
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