Diversity in Marvel Comics

[Miller]

@Lightray

Yeah, this whole argument is just as putrid as the “gay people can’t be married, no one would accept that; they can be something else” argument was. Here, it’s “Superman can’t be black; black characters should be someone else”. When you say “broad public” we all know who you’re arguing for.

Also:

Superman and Superman

And Lois.

[SlackerInc]

@Miller

And Lois.

Now *that *looks interesting.

[foolsguinea]

@SlackerInc

One thing that occurs to me. You hear from black comics fans that it’s important for black people to be able to see heroes they can identify with. Makes total sense. But can’t that also be true for white people, without it meaning they are bigots? And there are still a whole lot more white than black people in this country. So if you need to keep most heroes white to maintain sales, that’s not necessarily a terrible thing in a predominantly white country.

Yes. And?

Kitty Pryde: White (Jewish).
Rogue: White.
Wolverine (Laura & Logan): White.
The Rasputins (Colossus, Magik): White.
Star-Lord: White.
Jessica Jones: White.
Patsy Walker: White.
Iron Fist: White.
Wasp (Janet & Nadia): White.
The X-Men Gold team / “Original 5”: White like rice.
Hercules: Reasonably white-passing at least.
Jennifer Walters, de-Hulked: White.
Richard Rider: White.
Deadpool: White.
Frank Castle: White.
Squirrel Girl: White.
Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver: Light-skinned Rroma, white-presenting.
Hawkeye (Kate & Clint): White.
Peter Parker: White.
Spider-Woman (Jessica, Julia, Mattie, or Gwen): White.
Sharon Carter: White.
Phil Coulson: White.
Bobbi Morse: White.
Carol Danvers: White (usually).
The Storm family (Sue & Johnny): White.
Reed Richards and his children with Sue Storm: White.
Captain Britain (Brian): White.
The Powers (Alex, Julie, Jack, Katie): White.
Dagger: White.
USAgent, Diamondback, D-Man, Bucky (all from Captain America): White.
Cannonball: White.
General Maverick, de-Hulked: Looks white to me.
Billy Kaplan: White (Jewish).
Songbird: White (Jewish).
Dazzler: White.
Ant-Man (Scott, Eric, & Hank): White.
The Cassidy family (Banshee, Siryn): White.
Legion: White.
The Summers family: White.
Victor von Doom: Light-skinned Rroma, white-presenting.

Yes, clearly there is a shortage and we are running out. No, wait, what’s the opposite of that?

[foolsguinea]

@Lightray

You’re off by at least a decade: Wolverine was 1974.

And Deadpool was 1991; judging by the film’s sales, he’s “a really popular character”.

I believe Luke Cage, the Punisher, and several of the more popular X-Men date to the 1970’s. Kitty Pryde and Rogue first appeared closer to 1980.

The quick answer here is “nostalgia-based marketing.” If Marvel sells licensed crap with images from the 1960’s, that’s what you see. If they sell stuff that’s more up-to-date, then you see more recent characters as well.

[foolsguinea]

@SlackerInc

Interesting that he and Logan are both ruthless antihero killers, created the same year by Romita, Jr. He’s like the final version (so far) of Jack Kirby.

But, I’m pretty sure John Romita, Jr. didn’t create those characters?

I think the Punisher was developed by Gerry Conway and Ross Andru. Logan by…Len Wein and somebody?

:Googles:

Oh, John Romita*, Sr.* was involved in both.

[Lightray]

@foolsguinea

The X-Men Gold team / “Original 5”: White like rice.

In retrospect, I should’ve unpacked my answer to Nava better: she was suggesting that the O5 being present in the X-books was a return to status quo ante. But…

Bobby was retconned into a minority: he’s still white, but now he’s gay. A weirdly underrepresented minority in X-books, despite all the plot themes they take (there’s, what, Northstar, Anole, and Bling! otherwise? all minor). Old-version Bobby was also retconned into being gay by this.

O5 Warren got a power-up so he now matches none of Old-version Warren’s various incarnations.

Jean was un-fridged, thereby restoring the one woman in the O5. And she promptly became the focal character - basically, the oposite of what Old-version Jean was all those years.

Scott was reverted to his status quo ante, undoing all the development done back to the Utopia era (and mess from the A vs. X era)… and they don’t know what to do with him again. They muddled along with him joining the Starjammers, then into the Champions, but his return to How It Used To Be is pretty much a failure.

Hank has veered into whatever characterization they needed to move the plot at the moment forward, basically. So, more or less what Old-version Hank has been. Except O5 Hank is rather disdainful of Old-version Hank.

So. The O5 returning was played up as a return to the Good Old Days of the X-Men, it wasn’t terribly successful, and has since moved on to somewhat more diversity (gay guy + an actual woman). That’s apparently been successful enough that Marvel is now launching two books headed by the O5 - X-Men: Gold and Jean Grey. Again, arguing that sticking with non-diverse casting for grognardia’s sake isn’t a winning strategy.

p.s., I think Scarlet Witch has been drawn more like a Roma in her latest series, at least; not so for Pietro, though.

[SlackerInc]

Yes, John Romita, Sr. Sorry. (Although I wish people would just not do that Sr./Jr. thing: it’s confusing and weird and just seems vain, not to mention unoriginal and a little sexist.)

@foolsguinea

Yes, clearly there is a shortage and we are running out. No, wait, what’s the opposite of that?

Again: I haven’t read comics since the '80s, so I was just assuming the Marvel executive knew what he was talking about, and that articles like these weren’t fake news. ::shrug::

[Reluctant_A]

For someone who keeps repeating how they have no firsthand knowledge of current comics, you sure seem to have no shortage of hot takes on the subject of diversity in current comics.

[Nava]

@Lightray

In retrospect, I should’ve unpacked my answer to Nava better: she was suggesting that the O5 being present in the X-books was a return to status quo ante. But…

Actually no, my post was a response to one about Logan being “definitely dead”. The O5 got added because they happen to be in the same books and definitely dead to the same degree.

foolsguinea, Roma has a single R. There may be a language in which it’s written with two Rs but it’s neither Roma, nor English, nor any dialects thereof.

[SlackerInc]

@Reluctant_A

For someone who keeps repeating how they have no firsthand knowledge of current comics, you sure seem to have no shortage of hot takes on the subject of diversity in current comics.

I think 90% of everything I’ve ever talked about on the SDMB has been informed more by sources in the media than by personal experience. And I don’t think that’s all that unusual. However, in this case I can also add the personal experience of having bought thousands of comics in the 1980s, when they sold much better than they do today.

[TYphoonSignal8]

@Exapno_Mapcase

Getting back for a moment to the OP. When DC reintroduced a huge clutch of 1940s characters into *Showcase *and a few other test titles starting in 1956, they kept the superhero name and the basic power but changed everything else about them. Flash wasn’t the old Flash. Green Lantern wasn’t the old Green Lantern. Heck, Robotman of the Doom Patrol wasn’t the old Robotman even though both had human brains in robot bodies.

That worked amazingly well, although the reason it could was that no significant population of aging comic book readers existed. The field not only could start afresh, it could start over with a young teen-age audience and not have to appeal to adult sensibilities. And supposedly the characters were in response to what readers wrote in requesting, which is why the first three *Showcases *starred “Fire Fighters,” Kings of the Wild," and “The Frogmen.” It’s eerily possible that we could have had a Watchman-like situation and kids would read pirate comics.

I have to throw in one pet peeve. Seduction of the Innocent didn’t kill off superheroes. For one thing, it didn’t appear until 1954 and superheroes had been dying since the end of WWII. The industry already suffered from years of bad publicity and various governmental inquiries. The reason, in fact, why the gruesome crime and horror comics Wertham loved to dwell on were so numerous was that they were the replacement for superheroes.

If Seduction of the Innocent had any power, it would have killed off Batman and Robin with the “wish dream of two homosexuals living together” commentary. But Batman had long since been remade into a detective, honored by the police and public, working in the daytime solving whodunit mystery plots. That sanitizing saved him and Superman and made them as untouchable as Disney characters. The rebooted DC characters from 1956 on were just as sunny. Darker strips like the Doom Patrol never became more than cult classics and didn’t outlive the 60s.

Comics don’t sell today because when they sold in the millions it was to kids who had few other entertainment options and virtually no other ones they could afford and keep to themselves. Comics haven’t been for young kids for decades. They became faddish for adults a few times since and sold hugely. That could still happen again, I suppose, but it’s increasingly unlikely because there is literally no mass niche for them to fill.

Thanks for this cogent summary.

But if the consequences of *Seduction of the Innocent *wasn’t the trigger for the 1956 reintroduction, then what was?

I guess what I am trying to do is draw an analogy between Disney’s (theoretical) editorial mandate for diversification, and what happened in 1956 when DC’s characters were all upgraded.

SlackerInc:

One thing that occurs to me. You hear from black comics fans that it’s important for black people to be able to see heroes they can identify with. Makes total sense. But can’t that also be true for white people, without it meaning they are bigots? And there are still a whole lot more white than black people in this country. So if you need to keep most heroes white to maintain sales, that’s not necessarily a terrible thing in a predominantly white country.

As Louis CK says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJOcpapKGI there’s not much you can say that can hurt a white man’s feelings. White male privilege is indeed awesome.

[SlackerInc]

@TYphoonSignal8

SlackerInc:

As Louis CK says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJOcpapKGI there’s not much you can say that can hurt a white man’s feelings. White male privilege is indeed awesome.

I’m a big Louis CK fan, and I’ve seen that bit (and other variations on the theme). But I’m not clear about where “hurt feelings” come into play here. We’re talking about why someone might or might not buy a comic book. Failing to identify with the characters does not mean your feelings are hurt, especially (as you say) if you’re a white male. It might just mean you shrug and move on to spend your money on something else, without ever feeling bad about anything. If your aim is to somehow make them feel bad for not buying “diverse” comics, and in so doing reeducate these white guys as to why they *should *buy them…well, good luck with that. :dubious:

[iiandyiiii]

@SlackerInc

I’m a big Louis CK fan, and I’ve seen that bit (and other variations on the theme). But I’m not clear about where “hurt feelings” come into play here. We’re talking about why someone might or might not buy a comic book. Failing to identify with the characters does not mean your feelings are hurt, especially (as you say) if you’re a white male. It might just mean you shrug and move on to spend your money on something else, without ever feeling bad about anything. If your aim is to somehow make them feel bad for not buying “diverse” comics, and in so doing reeducate these white guys as to why they *should *buy them…well, good luck with that. :dubious:

That might happen, but it’s a reflection of societal racism, and not reasonable, which I think is what the discussion is about. If a reader stops reading because, in a new continuity, a hero is now black, they’re doing so for racist reasons, no matter their intent or overall character.

[SlackerInc]

@iiandyiiii

That might happen, but it’s a reflection of societal racism, and not reasonable, which I think is what the discussion is about. If a reader stops reading because, in a new continuity, a hero is now black, they’re doing so for racist reasons, no matter their intent or overall character.

First of all, I don’t believe that blanket statement is fair. For some, it will definitely be racism, overt or unconscious. But there are others like me who would also balk if a character just had different hair from the way they had always been portrayed. I cited Superman before, but although I liked some of the movies, I never bought DC comics. But let’s say they just decided suddenly that Logan was a tall blond dude. That just wouldn’t wash. Different artists are going to draw characters differently, but I want it to feel like it’s different “sketch artists” drawing the same person.

Secondly, people certainly have a moral obligation (and, thankfully, since the Great Society era of legislation, also a legal one) to serve racial minorities in a place of public accommodation, and not to deny them fair access to housing or employment. They don’t have that kind of obligation in terms of what kind of entertainment to prefer. I, for instance, like music by black musicians from previous eras, particularly the '50s-'70s; but the music I listen to that’s been created in recent decades is overwhelmingly white (the Decemberists, Father John Misty, etc.). Do I really need to have Kendrick Lamar or Drake on my iPod to not be a bigot?

[Darren_Garrison]

@Odesio

So, for people like me, Thor isn’t Jane Foster, Damien Wayne isn’t Robin. and if you try to throw Miles Morales as the Spectacular Spider-Man at me instead of Peter Parker I’m giving the movie a pass.

For me, Damien Wayne will always be Handiman.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Lightray

Now, maybe all those shrieking voices out in the land of wind and ghosts also shrieked in rage when Flash went from Barry Allen (white dude) to Wally West (white dude) to Bart Allen (brief white kid), and they’re just being consistent in also shrieking when there’s suddenly minorities and women thrown into the same situation. Maybe.

FWIW, when Green Lantern went from Hal Jordan to Kyle Rainer, the fanbase freaked the fuck out. I missed most of this, being preteen and not on the internet, so I didn’t quite realize why suddenly, the JLA books (which was the only serial I followed around 2000) suddenly lost my favorite character* a hundred or so episodes in, to be replaced by some new guy** I had never heard of who seemed like a total stick in the mud. So that was a thing.

*Kyle, not Hal
**John, not Hal

[iiandyiiii]

@SlackerInc

First of all, I don’t believe that blanket statement is fair. For some, it will definitely be racism, overt or unconscious. But there are others like me who would also balk if a character just had different hair from the way they had always been portrayed. I cited Superman before, but although I liked some of the movies, I never bought DC comics. But let’s say they just decided suddenly that Logan was a tall blond dude. That just wouldn’t wash. Different artists are going to draw characters differently, but I want it to feel like it’s different “sketch artists” drawing the same person.

But that’s not quite what I said – extreme purists like yourself might stop reading if anything changes. But if you stop reading just because a character’s race changes in a new continuity?

Secondly, people certainly have a moral obligation (and, thankfully, since the Great Society era of legislation, also a legal one) to serve racial minorities in a place of public accommodation, and not to deny them fair access to housing or employment. They don’t have that kind of obligation in terms of what kind of entertainment to prefer. I, for instance, like music by black musicians from previous eras, particularly the '50s-'70s; but the music I listen to that’s been created in recent decades is overwhelmingly white (the Decemberists, Father John Misty, etc.). Do I really need to have Kendrick Lamar or Drake on my iPod to not be a bigot?

What I’m talking about is an internalization of some qualities of larger society – in this discussion, some of the beliefs and common practices in society linked to racism and other forms of bigotry. I’m not calling anyone any names, including “bigot” – most people will internalize, to some degree, the larger beliefs and practices of the society they live in.

If I’m talking about any moral obligation, it’s to fight against these tendencies, both in one’s self and in society at large. Decent people in position to, say, write comic books or cast films should, when possible, make efforts to include more diversity in their work and film casts both to make society better (by demonstrating that these common beliefs and practices are artificial and unnecessary) and to improve the opportunities (and role models/idols/etc.) for people of color, LGBT, disabled, women, etc.

I don’t think the music you choose to listen to has anything to do with this, unless the race of the artists plays a role in your choices (whether conscious or unconscious). I would encourage you to seek out and consider music by lesser known and more diverse artists (which you may be doing already), and consider the possibility (just the possibility, not a certainty) that if all the music you listen to right now comes from white artists, then it’s possible that it’s due to some unconscious biases within yourself.

[SlackerInc]

It’s a conscious bias. I don’t like (most) hip hop, blues, or R&B. I did like a couple records by black musicians last year: Childish Gambino, and the reunited Tribe Called Quest. But by and large, black musicians don’t seem to be interested in making the kinds of music that could be called “indie”, “alternative”, “folk”, or “Americana”–and those are the styles I like.

That’s gettng off on a tangent, but I think it does tie in. Black musicians shouldn’t feel obligated to make my style of music. For them to express their own cultural vibe is totally cool, and lots of people are into that. More power to them. But I just think it’s OK for people to believe in civil rights but not be attracted to black culture. And that can include black culture expressed in comic book or graphic novel form, by black artists and writers.

So while this dynamic clearly doesn’t hurt black artists in terms of popularity of music, it may have a stronger effect among comics buyers. And if that’s so, it’s just how it is. Or maybe the NEA can fund minority artists if they are not commercially viable (starting in the '20s or later). I would be all for that. But I’m not for shaming people into buying comics they aren’t interested in.

[iiandyiiii]

@SlackerInc

It’s a conscious bias. I don’t like (most) hip hop, blues, or R&B. I did like a couple records by black musicians last year: Childish Gambino, and the reunited Tribe Called Quest. But by and large, black musicians don’t seem to be interested in making the kinds of music that could be called “indie”, “alternative”, “folk”, or “Americana”–and those are the styles I like.

That’s gettng off on a tangent, but I think it does tie in. Black musicians shouldn’t feel obligated to make my style of music. For them to express their own cultural vibe is totally cool, and lots of people are into that. More power to them. But I just think it’s OK for people to believe in civil rights but not be attracted to black culture. And that can include black culture expressed in comic book or graphic novel form, by black artists and writers.

Just off on this tangent, I think you might be missing out on some good music in those styles that you like – Janelle Monae (some of her stuff, anyway) and Santigold spring to mind most readily. I know there are many, many others.

Back to the discussion: I think you (and/or others) might have come to believe that you “aren’t attracted to black culture”, or that “black musicians don’t seem to be interested in making the kinds of music [snip]… I like”, and I think you might be artificially limiting yourself based on your beliefs on black culture and black music which are influenced by this broader and background societal racism and discrimination.

Again, just consider that if all or nearly all the music you listen to is made by white musicians, that this may be due to your own limitations (as influenced by society, and not any malice on your part), not the limitations of black musicians.

So while this dynamic clearly doesn’t hurt black artists in terms of popularity of music, it may have a stronger effect among comics buyers. And if that’s so, it’s just how it is. Or maybe the NEA can fund minority artists if they are not commercially viable (starting in the '20s or later). I would be all for that. But I’m not for shaming people into buying comics they aren’t interested in.

I don’t want to shame people either, but I would hope that some might come to realize that by shedding some of the artificial and unnecessary limitations that might be influenced by bigotry in larger society, they could open themselves to more enjoyment of art and other creative works.

[Chronos]

foolsguinea, that’s a very impressive list. But for completeness, we ought also to list off the characters who aren’t white. Off the top of my head, from the movie continuity:

Nick Fury: Black
War Machine: Black
Falcon: Black
Heimdall: Nonhuman, but appears black by human standards
Hogun: Nonhuman, but appears Asian by human standards
Wong: Chinese
Mordo: Black
Black Panther: Black, of course

From the comic books, I can think of Storm (black) and Miles Morales (black/Hispanic) off the top of my head, but I’m sure there’s more. And of course there are a fair few blue characters (Mystique, Beast, Nightcrawler) and at least one green (Gamora): I’m not sure if they can be assigned to a particular race or not.