# Divide California into six states? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936 "2014-07-24T14:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/41 "2014-07-24T18:39:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [**Poor** farming country?!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_(California)#Agriculture) Those numbers might change some if the drought continues. In addition to the other downsides listed, carving the Bay Area up into three separate states would be a logistics nightmare, particularly considering how many of the people would be commuting to a different state. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/42 "2014-07-24T18:47:23Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > In addition to the other downsides listed, carving the Bay Area up into three separate states would be a logistics nightmare, particularly considering how many of the people would be commuting to a different state. Is that a big problem for CT, NY, NJ? Not that I’d advocate the split, but commuting across state lines isn’t a logistical nightmare. It’s pretty common on the east coast. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/43 "2014-07-24T19:56:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Tim Draper’s idea.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Californias) It will be an initiative on the ballot in November. I see it listed on California’s Ballot Initiatives page as still being in the petition circulation stage. I think it’s targeted for the November _2016_ ballot, although there’s always the possibility of it getting on the 2016 Primary ballot (which I assume will be in June). > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The proposed map makes no sense to me: To begin with, if we’re going to go down this road, then every metropolitan area should be one state; but this map divides the San Francisco metro area between Silicon Valley and North California. Actually, most of the people, including all of San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose, are in the Silicon Valley state. From what I have heard in the past, the main reason the Bay Area split exists is, Northern California needs Marin County as its primary money base. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/44 "2014-07-24T20:00:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …but this map divides the San Francisco metro area between Silicon Valley and North California. All of Silicon Valley is in one state on this map. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/45 "2014-07-24T20:04:12Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > In addition to the other downsides listed, carving the Bay Area up into three separate states would be a logistics nightmare, particularly considering how many of the people would be commuting to a different state. As John said, no big deal. When I worked outside of Princeton lots of people commuted from Pennsylvania. What might be tricky is sales taxes. The Silicon Valley state might get more from income tax than the NorCal state and so could lower its sales tax to draw people there to shop. Especially a problem when most of the population lives close to the other state. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/46 "2014-07-24T20:09:54Z")
Yes, the biggest issue for a citizen is filing nonresident state tax returns. On the sales tax issue, a common practice is for the higher-tax state to “ask” you to pay “use tax” on items bought out-of-state, which is practically unenforceable and only chumps file it. On the administrative side, states that share major functions, like bridges and ports and water systems, will create authorities outside normal state government that have their own funding sources (bonds and user fees and tolls) and administrations. Those are ripe for patronage and corruption, unfortunately, being outside normal government oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/47 "2014-07-24T20:11:09Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > I see it listed on California’s Ballot Initiatives page as still being in the petition circulation stage. I think it’s targeted for the November _2016_ ballot, although there’s always the possibility of it getting on the 2016 Primary ballot (which I assume will be in June). > Actually, most of the people, including all of San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose, are in the Silicon Valley state. From what I have heard in the past, the main reason the Bay Area split exists is, Northern California needs Marin County as its primary money base. The State of Northern California could legalize marijuana, then Humboldt would be the primary money base. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/48 "2014-07-24T20:51:23Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > The State of Northern California could legalize marijuana, then Humboldt would be the primary money base. In this proposal, Humboldt is in Jefferson, not Northern CA. There is a natural dividing line at the southern end of Monterey County, going east across the state. That’s where the divide should be, if we have one. This plan is just nutty. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/49 "2014-07-24T21:21:47Z")
Splitting Alaska up makes no sense, there are more people in the Stockton metro area than the entire state of Alaska. Why are we not talking about splitting Montana up? Or Idaho, which has a major cultural divide between north and south? But the point that LA should be in a different state from Orange County is the height of absurdity. “_We’re not like you, so we should be separate from you_” really goes against the American “melting pot” ideal. We ought to be figuring out ways to get along with each other, not ways to get away from each other. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/50 "2014-07-24T21:27:18Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Splitting Alaska up makes no sense You could create dozens of jurisdictions that wouldn’t have enough population to form “a jury of peers,” making them the unpunishable-crime capitals of the country. “Oh yeah? Come over to North Southwest Yukon and say that!” ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/51 "2014-07-24T21:48:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Tim Draper’s idea.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Californias) It will be an initiative on the ballot in November. Then Congress would have to approve it, of course, and admit six new states (each with two Senators) to the Union. > > The proposed map makes no sense to me: To begin with, if we’re going to go down this road, then every [metropolitan area](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_of_the_United_States) should be **one** state; but this map divides the San Francisco metro area between Silicon Valley and North California. And what sense does it make to put LA and San Diego in different states?! > > But, those are details. Draper’s point is that CA as one state is just too big to govern. Is he right? And how would subdividing it improve matters anyway? I definitely agree that it makes makes no sense to split California, but not for this reason. There are many metro areas that are split among multiple states: New York, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, just to name some off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/52 "2014-07-24T21:53:59Z")
Well, as I think of it, if California were split into six states, the US flag would probably not be a problem, we could easily come up with 5 states wanting to secede – some of them might even be former parts of California. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/53 "2014-07-25T00:17:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Looks like [the proposals to do just that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California#Northern_boundary_of_Southern_California)go back to statehood, but got pushed down the priorities list by the Civil War. [They](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California) go back to before statehood, even; the South wanted the southern half to be a slave state. There’s been a lot: > [@](#): > > California, the most populous state in the United States and third largest in area, has been the subject of more than 220 proposals to divide it into multiple states[1] including at least 27 serious proposals. > [@Icarus](#): > > That is the limiting factor in this proposal - not only would one be voting for it in concept, but also in the particulars. I am not deeply opposed to splitting the state in some manner. After all, our 2 Senators in DC stand for a whole lot more voters than 2 Senators from say, Wyoming - yet they get just one Senate vote each. However, I would not vote for the split lines to be drawn in this specific way. So, no it is! Which is the main reason these proposals never go anywhere. No one can agree on exactly where they want the state split, so it doesn’t get split. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [**Poor** farming country?!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_(California)#Agriculture) Since it uses _unsustainable_ amounts of imported water, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/54 "2014-07-25T01:16:42Z")
California is so diverse I think 2 are too few states but 6 is too many. I could see California being split into 4 states. Southern California State of Mexicito: Orange, Riverside, San Diego and Imperial counties. State of Traffica: Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, San Bernardino, Kern and Ventura counties. Northern California State of El Camino del Rey Mar Vista: Monterey, San Benito, Santa Cruz, Santa Clara, San Mateo, San Francisco, Alameda, Contra Costa, Solano, Marin, Sonoma and Napa counties. State of Hills and Valleys: All other counties. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/55 "2014-07-25T02:25:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since it uses _unsustainable_ amounts of imported water, yes. [not _all_ imported](http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-California/2014/04/08/Central-California-is-Sinking-as-Groundwater-is-Depleted) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/56 "2014-07-25T02:40:53Z")
It’s good to see that Special Ed students like Draper are having successful lives. The idea in whatever form will never fly until we settle the question of who gets stuck with Bakersfield. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/57 "2014-07-25T03:03:47Z")
Did Creedence do a song about trying to parcel up California? \_\_\_\_\_\_\__Oh lord, stuck with Lodi again_ ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/58 "2014-07-25T03:20:25Z")
I totally hope this initiative passes, just to watch the media kerfuffle in the aftermath. This plan will never stick, anyway – even though I could envision a GOP-dominated Congress approving it (for those 4 extra red states, natch) there’s no chance in hell that Sacramento will approve any proposal which is essentially about them giving up their jobs. Incidentally, creating states from existing states has indeed occurred in the past. Vermont became the 14th state since NY & NH couldn’t agree on who owned it. Maine was spun off from Massachusetts as part of the Missouri Compromise of 1820. West Virginia split during the Civil War (and technically did _not_ adhere to Constitutional provisions, since the rest of Virginia never approved it, even after they were readmitted to the Union – but I get the feeling that they simply didn’t want it back.) Texas was a unique case since their statehood admission explicitly allowed their territory to be carved up into 2-5 states – indeed, parts of the original Texas are now parts of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Kansas and Colorado – but that particular agreement was nullified upon their post-Civil War readmission. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/59 "2014-07-25T03:41:16Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > No, Article IV expressly allows this sort of nonsense… > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **U.S. Constitution, Article IV. Section 3**. > New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. West Virginia notwithstanding, the above expressly forbids carving new states out of existing ones. Note the semicolon after the second clause. That semi-colon should be treated as a “soft” period. Otherwise, why use a semicolon instead of a comma? The Supreme Court never directly addressed the constitutionality of West Virginia’s secession and it has now just been grandfathered in. N.B. The Justices on the far right of the Supreme Court give themselves the freedom to define commas and semicolons in any way which suits their prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/60 "2014-07-25T03:44:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Doesn’t the Constitution prohibit this sort of nonsense? > > Also, Jefferson is a stupid name for a state. It should be Marx. That way, the City of Chico could be the State Capitol. Jefferson is the traditional name for several attempts to break off Northern California. And the proposed capital is Yreka. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936.md?page=4)