# Divide California into six states? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936 "2014-07-24T14:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/101 "2014-07-26T21:48:40Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Why does Disneycorp put their parks in such shitholes? Cause and effect? šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/102 "2014-07-26T23:31:07Z")
Orange County isnā€™t a particular shithole. Ever seen Newport Beach? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/103 "2014-07-27T00:05:15Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Iā€™ll be voting against it. Itā€™s a libertarian minded Silicon Valley residentā€™s attempt to get out from what he sees as overbearing California regulation and government interference. The new states are not functional. As previously mentioned, it divides the metro areas in the Bay Area into two regions. Itā€™s not quite as bad as splitting San Francisco from San Jose (as I understand it), but the North Bay is so interconnected to the Peninsula and East Bay that it cannot be reasonably split off. > > The plan also creates perhaps the wealthiest state in the country (Silicon Valley) right next to the new poorest state in the US (Central California). For those of you unfamiliar with California geography, the Central Valley is the large semi-arid region in the middle of the state. Itā€™s whatā€™s between the beautiful coast and the beautiful Sierras. Itā€™s poor farming country with bad air, mediocre infrastructure, and a struggling economy. The proposal isnā€™t about creating a more governable California; itā€™s about Silicon Valley cutting off the warty parts. The plan reads as ā€œI got mine, screw you all.ā€ > > But the biggest flaw is water. That warty part: itā€™s farmland. It uses lots of water. They may have their issues with federal and state management of Californiaā€™s water, as anybody whoā€™s driven highways 5 or 99 can attest, but splitting off North California will cripple them. Central California depends on North California and Jefferson for water. So does West and South California. Those regions are going to have to come crawling back to Sacramento, in North California, for their water. Thatā€™s before we even get into the allocation and regulatory nightmares that will occur because watersheds and aqueducts will have new state lines down the middle. I believe the Silicon Valley would be sitting pretty regarding water rights. Again, I read the plan as ā€œI got mine, screw you all.ā€ > > Waterā€™s not the only limited resource or piece of infrastructure that will be hellish to divvy up. Our infrastructure is not remotely close to evenly spread. Silicon Valley (San Francisco/San Jose) and West California (Los Angeles) ship prisoners from their high property value, densely populated region to the warty and sparsely populated Central California. Trying to build new prisons in those areas will be a nightmare, even if they get rid of regulations like CEQA (Californiaā€™s NEPA on steroids). The UC and California State college systems would require complete restructuring, and many students would suddenly find themselves out-of-state. > > California is certainly governable, as it currently is. Heck, since the Governor Brown took office and the Democrats got supermajorities in the legislature, Sacramento has been able to get things done. There are some things I donā€™t approve of (the train project and some other aspects), but at least Republican obstructionism has been almost completely sidelined and we can get a budget and donā€™t shoot ourselves in the foot by refusing to do anything. > > The Six Californias plan is a solution looking for a problem, and itā€™s not even a good solution. No State will ever be split up in the real world, so I donā€™t seriously care about this plan. However, some of your concerns are nonsense. State lines being drawn doesnā€™t make water rights management impossible to work out. Rivers cross State lines all over and there are ways to work out water rights along those waterways and there always have been. Things like the prisoner movement is more of a real concern because I donā€™t believe there are any arrangements in place where prisoners from one State are basically pawned off to another Stateā€™s Bureau of Prisons in exchange for the deporting state paying the recipient state off for it. There may even be legal challenges to that as an inmate could argue against the legality of a jurisdiction that has no criminal conviction on him incarcerating him. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/104 "2014-07-27T00:08:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is that a big problem for CT, NY, NJ? > > Not that Iā€™d advocate the split, but commuting across state lines isnā€™t a logistical nightmare. Itā€™s pretty common on the east coast. Yeah as I read this thread Iā€™m wondering if some people have actually lived in the United States. I live a little South of an area where tons of people cross State lines every day for work. Lots of folks live in Maryland, D.C, NoVa and cross them all in all directions for work. Thereā€™s even a daily train line that brings commuters from the eastern panhandle of West Virginia into downtown D.C. every day. Lots of people in the NY metro area similarly cross a state line for work. Even people in the Ohio Valley often live on one side of the Ohio River and work on the other. Same thing with other cities on state borders like Cincinnati, Louisville, or etc. How many Californians have ever driven across a state border? You guys know itā€™s just a sign on the road, there isnā€™t like a customs agent or border control process to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/105 "2014-07-27T00:12:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > How many Californians have ever driven across a state border? Just because everyone else has to drive across a state border to get there doesnā€™t mean Californians have to drive across a border to get anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/106 "2014-07-27T00:14:11Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Just because everyone else has to drive across a state border to get there doesnā€™t mean Californians have to drive across a border to get anywhere. No one is suggesting they should. Itā€™s just that the ā€œhave to cross the borderā€ argument isnā€™t even in the top 10 reasons why this proposal is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/107 "2014-07-27T00:22:35Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > West Virginia split during the Civil War (and technically did _not_ adhere to Constitutional provisions, since the rest of Virginia never approved it, even after they were readmitted to the Union ā€“ but I get the feeling that they simply didnā€™t want it back.) No, we wanted the western counties back for sure. West Virginia was actually much better positioned than Virginia in the time period. Virginia has fared far better primarily because of the influx of educated persons in the NoVa area for all the white collar jobs created due to proximity to the seat of the Federal government, and the major advantages West Virginia had in the mid-19th century (namely, important rail lines west of the Appalachians which were hard to cross even then, and lots of natural resources) havenā€™t played out all that well for them. But in all reality the eastern Panhandle of WV weā€™d want back even today. Some of it is basically depopulated but there are a lot of high income towns/counties through there. The Eastern Panhandle was never West Virginian culturally or economically. Northern West Virginia is the same way. Itā€™s really Southern and Central WV that are what most of you think of when you think of the State (backwards, hillbilly etc.) Although there are some packets of Pennsylvanian type hill folks in Northern WV. But what advocates of WV existing will point out (I guess technically, but not morally, right) is that the process was followed. For it to be constitutional, the legislature of Virginia had to approve the split, and so did the Federal government. Both technically, did. Some secessionists formed a legislature in Wheeling that actually represented Virginia as a whole, and presented itself as the ā€œRestored Government of Virginia.ā€ They promulgated the secession from Virginia vote. When it passed, the guy who actually ran the government in Wheeling moved out of West Virginia and became the governor of ā€œRestored Virginiaā€ which was then a small collection of northern counties of VA under Federal control. The government of Virginia there approved the split. This government of course represented maybe 5% of Virginia territory and almost none of its people, but for the legal fiction they did their due diligence. The worst part of it was, the people of West Virginia did not want to split away from Virginia at all. This was done and approved of by Lincoln to hurt Virginia, plain and simple. You can still find county by county vote results. The entire southern half of the State, which was mostly pro-Confederacy (in terms of number of soldiers it sent to fight for the Confederates vs Union), didnā€™t even vote. That whole area of the State viewed the vote as illegitimate and did not participate. The Eastern counties which were actually on the wrong side of the mountains to even be considered part of WV, and were not culturally the same, werenā€™t part of the vote at all. The central counties had lots of persons abstain from voting, as many of them protested the vote, but those who did vote voted for secession. Finally, in the Northern Counties there was very high turnout to break away from Virginia. So essentially a small swathe of Virginia up near Wheeling voted some 50 counties from the Commonwealth who did not support the move at all. The fate of the eastern panhandle counties is the most improper, because even those who arranged the vote considered those counties to be part of Virginia, and didnā€™t even consider them as part of the referendum. Lincoln basically said ā€œwell we control these counties right now and they are a very important transportation zone as they control some of the few passes an army can take to get through the Appalachians, so these counties are also part of WV.ā€ These counties were the subject of a specific suit by Virginia against the Federal Government and WV due to this, but they lost in the Supreme Court (Virginia lost the main suit as well that contested the constitutionality of WV in its entirety.) Itā€™s for the best we donā€™t have to deal with the poverty/poor culture of WV south of say, Clarksburg, but the Virginia leaders of the 19th century were not at all happy about losing any land to a new State. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/108 "2014-07-27T00:41:11Z")
If weā€™re going to be cutting States up the reality is we should be removing some States as well. For example Delaware, which is not even a State but more of legal jurisdiction of corporate incorporation, just continue the Mason-Dixon line and that area north of it goes to Pennsylvania, give the rest of its land to Maryland. Thereā€™s no reasonable argument to be made that Rhode Island/Connecticut need to exist as States, and Massachusetts should just get to absorbing them. In fact the entire region of New England is suspect, and feels like something designed to give Democrats more Senate seats. I think there is an argument to be made for simply ejecting Vermont from the union, as it is by far the least American of all States and has little to offer us. If we want to keep the current D/R balance in the Senate we can do things like turn Austin, TX or Houston into a ā€œFree Cityā€ with its own Senate/House seats. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/109 "2014-07-27T01:20:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No one is suggesting they should. Itā€™s just that the ā€œhave to cross the borderā€ argument isnā€™t even in the top 10 reasons why this proposal is stupid. There were some kids in my kidsā€™ school who had never been out of California, so donā€™t underestimate the provinciality of some Californians. Look at the forms we have with no space for State. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/110 "2014-07-27T12:09:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > All of this is why at least four of the first ten full-scale fusion reactors will be installed along the California coast and used for desalinization. Particularly once the ocean rises enough to flood the aqueduck that supplies most of the SF peninsula with waterā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/111 "2014-07-27T12:22:04Z")
Thereā€™s a better solution if California is too big and diverse: change Californiaā€™s constitution to make the central government less powerful. Establish regional governments if they want. What would also help is recognition by California voters that the United States is even more big and diverse, and thus centralizing authority in DC is as bad an idea as centralizing authority in Sacramento. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/112 "2014-07-27T13:30:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Thereā€™s a better solution if California is too big and diverse: change Californiaā€™s constitution to make the central government less powerful. Establish regional governments if they want. > > What would also help is recognition by California voters that the United States is even more big and diverse, and thus centralizing authority in DC is as bad an idea as centralizing authority in Sacramento. California already has regional governments. In California, we call these entities ā€œCountiesā€, We find them to be vile, corrupt, and necessary. How does it work on your planet? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/113 "2014-07-27T15:44:27Z")
Doesnā€™t any legislation of significance get passed via referendum, not the legislature, in California anyway? How much more decentralized can you get? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/114 "2014-07-27T16:09:06Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > California already has regional governments. In California, we call these entities ā€œCountiesā€, We find them to be vile, corrupt, and necessary. How does it work on your planet? Yes. California counties are immensely powerful management and governing bodies. I didnā€™t understand how anyone could not know that until I moved to a state where counties were effectively abolished in the 1960s and exist only as convenient groupings of townships, which hold the real power below the state level. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/115 "2014-07-27T18:35:27Z")
The greatest disadvantage about being an atheist is that I cannot plead to any god to visit pestilence upon local politicians. Once Iā€™m retired Iā€™m going to see to it myself. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/116 "2014-07-27T18:45:42Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > The greatest disadvantage about being an atheist is that I cannot plead to any god to visit pestilence upon local politicians. So you think there should be no political entities belowā€¦ what? Federal? State? ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/117 "2014-07-27T21:00:09Z")
Many local politicians are fine public servants who deserve thanks that they never receive. City and County staff are most often tireless and talented, but their leaders areā€¦subject to scrutiny. I live and work where County and City politicians still consider sprawl to be their lifeā€™s work. The manifest destiny of every jurisdiction is to fill up every acre before the city next door gets there first. Once there is no more ground to fill, then the developer-supported politicians give way to slow-growth politicians who have already lost the fight. I know for certain that the County supervisors who are supposed to be charting the future course of the County that I live in are largely developer cronies. One of them is married to one of the biggest developers in the county. Whatever I can do to thwart her, however pitiful the effort, is worth doing. Thereā€™s a State Senator who hails from my home town who is a complete piece of shit. He cynically converted from Republican to Democrat when he realized there was no future in being a Republican in a Democratic district. His change of heart never contemplated any kind of pit-stop in the middle, where I reside. People who vote for him donā€™t know his history, and I intend to make sure that they do the next time he tries to climb a rung. It is ugly. In other news, Iā€™ve given notice at work that Iā€™m retiring early. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/118 "2014-07-27T21:02:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think there is an argument to be made for simply ejecting Vermont from the union, as it is by far the least American of all States and has little to offer us. šŸ˜• What? They donā€™t speak French, do they? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/119 "2014-07-27T21:12:28Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > The greatest disadvantage about being an atheist is that I cannot plead to any god to visit pestilence upon local politicians. One Christian saying is ā€œThe Lord helps those who help themselves.ā€ So, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/120 "2014-07-27T21:29:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One Christian saying is ā€œThe Lord helps those who help themselves.ā€ > > So, have at it. That was one of Aesopā€™s, actually, though of course he made it ā€œThe Gods.ā€ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936.md?page=7)