# Divide California into six states? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936 "2014-07-24T14:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/121 "2014-07-27T22:46:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Doesn’t any legislation of significance get passed via referendum, not the legislature, in California anyway? How much more decentralized can you get? We have an overzealous referendum system, but I think that would a bit of an exaggeration. We are, at this point, essentially a one part state, so the Democrats can pretty much do what they want. Prop 13 did require a 2/3 majority for raising taxes, but the Democrats now have that majority. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/122 "2014-07-27T22:49:46Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Particularly once the ocean rises enough to flood the aqueduck that supplies most of the SF peninsula with water… How many inches of rise would that take? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/123 "2014-07-27T22:59:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many inches of rise would that take? A rising tide lifts all ducks ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/124 "2014-07-28T00:53:48Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > A rising tide lifts all ducks Why a duck? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/125 "2014-07-28T01:18:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why a duck? Because they weigh the same as witches, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/126 "2014-07-28T01:56:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many inches of rise would that take? For a real answer … the Hetch Hetchy aqueduct crosses the Central Valley in buried pipelines. Its [outlet into the Crystal Springs Reservoir](http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=93) is 300 feet above sea level. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/127 "2014-07-28T02:01:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Central Valley includes the Sacramento and San Joaquin Rivers and all their tributaries – why would it need to import water? The San Joaquin River enters the San Joaquin Valley at Fresno, and is pretty much tapped out from there. The Tulare basin, south of there, is almost entirely dependent on [imported water.](http://wwd.ca.gov) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/128 "2014-07-28T02:39:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@eschereal](#): > > > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > > > > [@Ethilrist](#): > > > > > > > > Particularly once the ocean rises enough to flood the aque **duck** that supplies most of the SF peninsula with water… > > > > > > How many inches of rise would that take? > > > > A rising tide lifts all ducks > > Why a duck? Because I was born in Oregon, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/129 "2014-07-28T09:03:02Z")
[This](http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Six-Californias-initiative-is-6-ways-to-crazy-5631705.php) is telling. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/130 "2014-07-28T14:55:59Z")
Michael Lind recommends doing a lot more of this – [“Break up the states! The case for the United Statelets of America.”](http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/break_up_the_states_the_case_for_the_united_statelets_of_america/) > [@](#): > > America’s state governments are too big to be democratic and too small to be efficient. Given an adequate tax base, public services like public schools and hospitals, utilities and first responders are best carried out by cities and counties. Most infrastructure is either local or regional or national. Civil rights, including workers’ rights, should be handled at the federal level, to eliminate local pockets of tyranny and exploitation. Social insurance systems are most efficient and equitable when they are purely national, like Social Security and Medicare, and inefficient and inequitable when they are clumsily divided among the federal government and the states, like unemployment insurance, Medicaid and Obamacare. > > So what are state governments particularly good at? Nothing, really. They interfere in local government, cripple the federal government, shake down lobbyists and waste taxpayer money. > > Few if any state borders correspond to the boundaries of actual social communities with a sense of shared identity. A look at county-level voting maps shows that, in terms of politics, rural Americans everywhere generally have more in common with their fellow hinterlanders than with their urban fellow citizens in their own states — and vice versa. Arbitrary state boundaries merely insure that state legislatures will be the scenes of endless battles between country mice and city mice, resulting in stalemates that don’t serve the interests or reflect the values of either mouse species. > > Not only is the state level of government a mostly useless layer of politics and bureaucracy between the city or county and the federal government, it’s also more dominated than local government by the well-financed and the well-organized. Nearly a century ago John Nance “Cactus Jack” Garner of Texas, FDR’s first vice-president, proposed that Texas be divided into multiple states because of the high cost of statewide campaigns. Expensive statewide campaigns tend to result in a state political system dominated by rich donors, corporations and banks, or powerful lobbies like public sector unions. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/131 "2014-07-28T20:07:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Doesn’t any legislation of significance get passed via referendum, not the legislature, in California anyway? How much more decentralized can you get? The California greenhouse gas cap-and-trade legislation was passed via the legislature. That’s the first that jumps to mind. For several years, the impression was that California couldn’t even pass a budget, and we couldn’t. Democrats controlled the agenda, and Republicans had enough to prevent it from passing because it required a suprmajority. Now, the Dems have that supermajority, so bills are getting passed. For better or for worse. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Rivers cross State lines all over and there are ways to work out water rights along those waterways and there always have been. I’m not saying water rights couldn’t be figured out, but the proposal as I understand it, does not even touch on that issue. It’s a critical issue. There is a constant fight between water for the endangered species in the deltas, the Central Valley Farmers, and the thirsty metro LA area. The California Aqueduct would cross 4 of the six states to get water to LA. I’m not sure how that streamlines governance in any way. Central valley farmers are already desperate for water, while some states. It might be enough for Silicon Valley. If they don’t get it, they may have to import everything My previous post was wrong regarding Silicon Valley having what they needed. They may have more precipitation than many areas, but they have no storage to speak of.) ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/132 "2014-07-28T21:55:07Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > A few thoughts / responses: > LA is a very different place from Orange County and San Diego. It makes sense to separate them. > California has very different needs, interests, etc. The ability to influence Sacramento from any given county is difficult at best. > Draper really just wants Silicon Valley to be able to get more competitive with other states, especially with taxes. He wants to foster more competition among the California states as well. > > California is also under-represented in the Senate for our population > Republicans in California are not represented at all at the State level due to the #s. This is their own fault due to the idiots that they have put up over time, plus changing demographics though. Eh, out-state Missouri is very different from Kansas City and St. Louis. Of course, that would be an odd looking state - I guess you could put the boundary on I-70 +/- 10 miles or so, and pick up Columbia while you were at it. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/133 "2014-07-28T23:51:40Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. California counties are immensely powerful management and governing bodies. > > I didn’t understand how anyone could not know that until I moved to a state where counties were effectively abolished in the 1960s and exist only as convenient groupings of townships, which hold the real power below the state level. Yeah, growing up in the Northeast I thought counties were about as important (and meaningful) as unicorns. As to NE deserving to be one state, I can see that, but I say we keep Vermont as a separate entity. I don’t agree with much of that state’s politics and policies, but I like the idea of one whole, mosquito-ridden, hippie, socialist, stoner state. Kinda like when you see a loud color on a car and think (without irony) “hey, I kinda like that color- on someone else’s car” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/134 "2014-07-29T16:41:03Z")
Vermont makes good cheese. They rival Tillamook for the best cheese in the country. Oh, and Smalldog has for years been the best place to get Mac stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/135 "2014-07-29T16:51:33Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > I’m not saying water rights couldn’t be figured out, but the proposal as I understand it, does not even touch on that issue. It’s a critical issue. There is a constant fight between water for the endangered species in the deltas, the Central Valley Farmers, and the thirsty metro LA area. The California Aqueduct would cross 4 of the six states to get water to LA. I’m not sure how that streamlines governance in any way. Central valley farmers are already desperate for water, while some states. It might be enough for Silicon Valley. If they don’t get it, they may have to import everything My previous post was wrong regarding Silicon Valley having what they needed. They may have more precipitation than many areas, but they have no storage to speak of.) You’re speaking historically. The evidence is that the final water crisis is on California and the west; desertification from GCC is already on the march. The minor troubles of the last decade, battling over relatively small amounts of water to enable the southern valley farms, were merely the overture. I predict the current drought will be seen as the first permanent tumble of water availability, with only decreases, on average, from here on out. The pissant skirmishes of the last century are about to get serious. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/136 "2014-08-01T07:14:51Z")
Yes, the Six California’s initiative will fail if for no other reason than that the thirsty parts of California will never accede to a measure that separates them from the less thirsty parts. The Sacramento Delta is what’s at stake. Northern Californians are asked to believe that enormous tunnels and canals that are proposed to siphon water around the Sacramento River Delta and carry more water south are intended to improve the health of the Delta and Bay. The argument is that the new capacity will not be used, and that large sums of money will be spread around to restore the Delta. Apparently the Delta Smelt and other at-risk species are capable of swimming around in money rather than water. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/137 "2014-08-01T13:41:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why don’t I ever see this kind of nonsense for Texas or Alaska, geographically bigger states? Or is it just confirmation bias since I live in CA? There has long been a notion of making the Upper Peninsula of Michigan a separate state from the lower one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/138 "2014-08-01T15:02:15Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > The Sacramento Delta is what’s at stake. Northern Californians are asked to believe that enormous tunnels and canals that are proposed to siphon water around the Sacramento River Delta and carry more water south are intended to improve the health of the Delta and Bay. The argument is that the new capacity will not be used . . . 😕 Then what is the point of creating it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/139 "2014-08-01T15:06:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . . . the Upper Peninsula of Michigan . . . You mean, “Occupied Wisconsin.” ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936/140 "2014-08-01T16:39:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Then what is the point of creating it? The argument for the “Peripheral Canal” and its variants has always been that only “excess” water from northern rainfall and snowpack would be diverted. Instead of letting billions of acre-feet wash away into the Bay, that amount over a baseline needed for downstream use and ecological balance would be productively rerouted. Of course, not one drop more would ever be taken. In, say, a rising drought scenario, they’d just close the gates and let the canal go dry along with SoCal. Hey, let me show you this bridge I have for sale… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/divide-california-into-six-states/693936.md?page=8)