# Djokovic's Medical Exemption **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** tennis\ **Created:** [January 5, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283 "2022-01-05T21:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/61 "2022-01-07T17:32:44Z")
It isn’t “nonsense red tape” and he’s not being fucked over. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/62 "2022-01-07T18:13:47Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Have you ever dealt with nonsense red tape to get a visa? It’s infuriating. Many (20+) times. Somehow I never got to an airport with the wrong visa. But then maybe that is because I never think I am bigger than governments, regulatory organizations, my employer, etc. When someone tells me that I need to do X to get Y, I don’t start arguing about what that requirement exists. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/63 "2022-01-07T18:19:24Z")
My daughter got her student visa to study in the UK. She flew there through Ireland, who can’t stamp the visa, and then, due to shared customs, she didn’t get the stamp when she arrived in the UK. So, we had to fly her over to France and then back again directly to the UK, so she could get it stamped (of course, planes were delayed and she ended up having to spend the night in France). It was a pain in the ass, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Border control is a pain in the ass, but there’s no way around it. One thing that will make it worse is getting a bullshit medical exemption from Dr. Nick Riviera. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/64 "2022-01-07T18:43:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It was a pain in the ass, but you gotta do what you gotta do. > > Border control is a pain in the ass, but there’s no way around it. Yes! There is! Governments could make it _less_ of a pain in the ass! Having to jump through absurd hoops and take extra flights instead of having someone who is empowered (and encouraged) to say “Well, you filled out this form wrong, but obviously you were trying to do the right thing, so just fill out this new form and you can be on your way” is a policy choice that is being made on purpose and could be made otherwise. It is very weird to me that everyone acknowledges that international travel paperwork is a major pain in the ass that provides basically no security value, but we assume it’s just the natural state of things, and we celebrate when the burden falls extra hard on someone we don’t like. What principle are we in favor of here? Government process should be terrible because sometimes bad people will get their just desserts? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/65 "2022-01-07T18:58:51Z")
Right, but none of this is germane to this thread. We don’t know the details, but my assumption at this point is that Djokovic misrepresented what kind of medical excuse he had, or had a visa that didn’t require one, or something else. The principle here is that those restrictions apply to everyone, but maybe Djokovic thought they didn’t apply to him. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/66 "2022-01-07T19:08:52Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Right, but none of this is germane to this thread. I disagree. I think it’s the fundamental issue. Why are there different standards at the state level for an exemption than at the federal level? Why is the solution to “you have the wrong kind of visa” to fly home rather than to fill out a form to get the right kind of visa? All of that is the sort of complexity that we just accept as standard but it doesn’t have to be. And there are some in this thread celebrating that it’s complicated but that he’s getting kicked out. It should be _really_ hard to fly to a country without being sure that you’ll get in, but it’s _astonishingly_ easy to do, even for someone who’s making a good faith effort to abide by the rules. Because the rules are dumb and arbitrary and the failure to jump through the proper hoops is punitive rather than restorative. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/67 "2022-01-07T19:11:14Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > …even for someone who’s making a good faith effort to abide by the rules. This really seems not germane to the thread. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Why are there different standards at the state level for an exemption than at the federal level? I don’t know the answers to your various questions, but I can definitely see lower requirements to travel from state to state than into and out of the country. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/68 "2022-01-07T19:17:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t know the answers to your various questions, but I can definitely see lower requirements to travel from state to state than into and out of the country. I mean, either you have a legitimate medical exemption or you don’t, right? Having different methods to judge that is just regulatory burden generated by the structure of government that’s unlikely to be particularly useful for any goal. Try applying this kind of logic to any other sort of government permission. Like, instead of just getting a drivers license from the state you live in, maybe you need to apply for a specific drivers waiver to drive legally in another state. And then when you show up at the border on your vacation, they’d be like “oooh, sorry, you filled out the form for someone on a local vacation, but you’re _actually_ planning to drive through to another state.” And you can’t just change it here, you’ll have to go home and reapply. It’s dumb! It doesn’t have anything to do with whether you’re a good driver. It doesn’t make anyone safer. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/69 "2022-01-07T19:24:23Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I mean, either you have a legitimate medical exemption or you don’t, right? Wrong. The Australian government can decide that they don’t want to admit any unvaccinated non-citizens into the country, regardless of whether they have had COVID. Victoria can decide to let Australian residents to come in from NSW if they’ve had COVID or have tested negative recently, whether or not they’re vaccinated. Restricting interstate travel should be much harder to do than restricting international travel. We don’t restrict it at all in the US. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/70 "2022-01-07T19:35:29Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The Australian government can decide that they don’t want to admit any unvaccinated non-citizens into the country, regardless of whether they have had COVID. I have no problem with that policy. But that’s not actually the Australia government’s policy. They _do_ allow medical exemptions. They’re just very unclear about what constitutes one. I’ve spent about 10 minutes trying to figure out what the standards are for the different medical exemptions and I can’t really find a solid answer as to how they are different. I found [for Victoria](https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/information-overseas-travellers#travellers-who-have-a-medical-exemption) and [this page for Australia](https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/travel-restrictions#toc-4) I did find a claim on the latter that " If you are **not** granted an exemption, you should not continue with your travel plans, as you will not be permitted to board a flight to Australia.", which demonstrably not true. My point is that it’s _legitimately_ hard to even figure out what the rules are, or to do the right thing when you’re trying, and no one will really tell you if you did it right until you arrive, and that’s a bad thing. And we shouldn’t be happy just because bad things happen to people we don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/71 "2022-01-07T19:40:30Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > If you are **not** granted an exemption, you should not continue with your travel plans, as you will not be permitted to board a flight to Australia.", which demonstrably not true. He was granted a visa for something. I don’t know what he applied for. In the best case for him, it was a medical exemption for not having been vaccinated that required some documentation (if he didn’t apply for that one, he really fucked up). It’s certainly possible that the flight attendants on the far side looked at his documentation and said, sure. Then, the Australian border control took a closer look and said, whoa, wait a minute. We’re both making a ton of assumptions on what he did or didn’t do right. Who knows about his specific case? I doubt we ever will. Lots and lots of people are able to deal with this onerous paperwork without whining about it or being compared to Jesus Christ, all without trying to spread a deadly virus by not getting vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/72 "2022-01-07T19:46:15Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Lots and lots of people are able to deal with this onerous paperwork without whining about it Yes, and lots of people get screwed by it, too. I just read a story upthread about some poor girl who _had to fly to another country_ for no reason except that was the only way to get the right stamp in her passport. What a pain, right? Seems like it’s legitimate to complain about such a dumb process. > [@RitterSport](#): > > all without trying to spread a deadly virus by not getting vaccinated. I mean, there it is: He’s a bad guy, so it’s good that he got snared by this bullshit process. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/73 "2022-01-07T19:50:11Z")
Your position seems to be that he is not a bad guy and so it’s not a good thing that he got caught by the process; it that accurate? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/74 "2022-01-07T19:50:16Z")
I think you could have left it at “he’s a bad guy.” I’m sorry that I’m human and enjoy some schadenfreude from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/75 "2022-01-07T19:54:53Z")
No, my position is that he’s a bad guy (traveling unvaccinated), but that we shouldn’t celebrate that he happened to get caught by a terrible process that is generally an equal-opportunity drain on everyone, good and bad alike. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/76 "2022-01-07T19:55:24Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I mean, there it is: He’s a bad guy, so it’s good that he got snared by this bullshit process. How “bullshit” could this process be if it stopped this “bad guy” from catching and/or spreading a horrible disease in a country he is not even a citizen of? If you are here to oppose the process, you are definitely rallying behind the wrong symbol. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/77 "2022-01-07T19:59:11Z")
Regardless of how I personally feel about Djokovic, there seems to be two possible scenarios here: 1. He applied to enter Australia using what he thought was a legitimate method, and for which he believed he legitimately qualified, but due to arcane bureaucratic issues, he’s being denied entry 2. He tried to game the system, by applying for an entry method for which he didn’t actually qualify (and he knew it), and he got caught I have some empathy for him if it’s the former; I have zero empathy if it’s the latter. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/78 "2022-01-07T20:01:21Z")
This (ETA: this was directed at @Czarcasm, not at @kenobi_65) is exactly the same logic as used by anti-immigration people who say that we shouldn’t let in any immigrants because some of them will commit crimes. The problem is that it doesn’t consider the costs of the process. Immigrants are on net good. International travel is on net a good thing. A clear and sane and easy to follow government process is a good thing. The bullshit part is not the vaccine requirement. The bullshit part is the confusing and arbitrary process by which it’s not possible to tell with any certainty whether you’ll be let into a country before you get on a plane. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > you are definitely rallying behind the wrong symbol. I mean, this is the story of the day. I’m not a fan of Djokevic. I’m also not a fan of the ridiculousness of international paperwork. And I’m _really_ not a fan of the sort of “ends justify the means” reasoning that results in people celebrating bad policy when it happens to punish people they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/79 "2022-01-07T20:05:48Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > No, my position is that he’s a bad guy (traveling unvaccinated), but that we shouldn’t celebrate that he happened to get caught by a terrible process that is generally an equal-opportunity drain on everyone, good and bad alike. And yet the process exists specifically to do what it is doing now. I’m okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283/80 "2022-01-07T20:06:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you are here to oppose the process, you are definitely rallying behind the wrong symbol. Sounds a lot like “We shouldn’t have well articulated principles when they prevent us from punishing bad people”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/djokovics-medical-exemption/957283.md?page=5)