# DNA evidence unmasks Jack the Ripper. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 7, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783 "2014-09-07T17:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/1 "2014-09-07T17:33:19Z")
Supposedly it has been proven that it was Polish immigrant Aaron Kosminski. How credible is this? It seems very credible to me. > **[The Ripper unmasked: DNA identify Britain's most notorious criminal](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746321/Jack-Ripper-unmasked-How-amateur-sleuth-used-DNA-breakthrough-identify-Britains-notorious-criminal-126-years-string-terrible-murders.html#ixzz3CaQPIrlx)** > > A shawl found by the body of Catherine Eddowes, one of the Ripper’s victims, has been analysed and found to contain DNA from her as well as the killer. > [@](#): > > Jari used the same extraction method on the semen traces on the shawl, warning that the likelihood of sperm lasting all that time was very slim. He enlisted the help of Dr David Miller, a world expert on the subject, and in 2012 they made another incredible breakthrough when they found surviving cells. They were from the epithelium, a type of tissue which coats organs. In this case, it was likely to have come from the urethra during ejaculation. > > Kosminski was 23 when the murders took place, and living with his two brothers and a sister in Greenfield Street, just 200 yards from where the third victim, Elizabeth Stride, was killed. As a key suspect, his life story has long been known, but I also researched his family. Eventually, we tracked down a young woman whose identity I am protecting – a British descendant of Kosminski’s sister, Matilda, who would share his mitochondrial DNA. She provided me with swabs from the inside of her mouth. > > Amplifying and sequencing the DNA from the cells found on the shawl took months of painstaking, innovative work. By that point, my excitement had reached fever-pitch. And when the email finally arrived telling me Jari had found a perfect match, I was overwhelmed. Seven years after I bought the shawl, we had nailed Aaron Kosminski. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/2 "2014-09-07T17:43:13Z")
I came here to start the same thread. It seems to be a conclusive find. Is it tabloid stuff or did they really for real identify Jack the Ripper? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/3 "2014-09-07T17:47:07Z")
This writer questions the provenance of the shawl. > **[Jack the Ripper finally identified by DNA? Maybe, maybe not ...](https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2014/09/jack_the_ripper_finally_identi.html)** > > Jack the Ripper, the notorious serial killer who butchered women in London's Whitechapel district in the late 1800s, has eluded identification for about 125 years, spawning wide speculation about who he was, even pointing to a member of the British... But how unlikely is it that a shaw that is claimed to be connected to a victim just happens to have mitochondrial DNA from one of the main suspects? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/4 "2014-09-07T17:50:08Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Supposedly it has been proven that it was Polish immigrant Aaron Kosminski. > How credible is this? It seems very credible to me. > [Jack the Ripper identified by amateur sleuth as Aaron Kosminski | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746321/Jack-Ripper-unmasked-How-amateur-sleuth-used-DNA-breakthrough-identify-Britains-notorious-criminal-126-years-string-terrible-murders.html#ixzz3CaQPIrlx) So, you’re telling me that a prostitute had semen on her shawl? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/5 "2014-09-07T17:57:14Z")
I thought he was the likeliest suspect based on a TV special I saw years ago - but since it was The History Channel or some such, I’ve never been sure it was reliable in the first place. For that matter The Daily Mail isn’t that trustworthy either, is it? [It sounds a lot of verification will be required.](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/has-jack-the-rippers-identity-really-been-revealed-using-dna-evidence-9717036.html) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/6 "2014-09-07T17:58:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So, you’re telling me that a prostitute had semen on her shawl? You make a good point. He could simply have been one of her clients. But according to the article he was identified by one of the witnesses. Of course, the witness may have been mistaken. Also, the man was mentally ill, so it’s at least conceivable that he came upon the body after the fact and masturbated on the shawl. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/7 "2014-09-07T18:04:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So, you’re telling me that a prostitute had semen on her shawl? As it is the Daily Fail one should indeed be wary. > **[Jack the Ripper finally identified by DNA? Maybe, maybe not ...](https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2014/09/jack_the_ripper_finally_identi.html)** > > Jack the Ripper, the notorious serial killer who butchered women in London's Whitechapel district in the late 1800s, has eluded identification for about 125 years, spawning wide speculation about who he was, even pointing to a member of the British... > [@](#): > > 1. While Russell Edwards, the sleuth, and Jari Louhelainen, the scientist, detail some of the methods of sample recovery and analysis in the Daily Mail’s piece, this is not the same as reporting and publishing your methods in a peer-reviewed journal (and Edwards’ “Naming Jack the Ripper” cited at the end is not what I’d call a PRJ). I’d want to see such a journal article and any subsequent critiques by other scientists before I decide whether to accept this claim that the Ripper’s been identified. I did a quick search of Google Scholar and found nothing on this particular work from Louhelainen, but perhaps something will be forthcoming. > > That all said, I’d love to see someone finally resolve this long-running criminal mystery and find out who the Ripper likely was. Again, I want to see that backed up with extraordinarily good evidence. There are however some items that if confirmed would make it more likely, while it is true that the piece of clothing has dubious origins if the DNA matched one of the victims as it was reported then those doubts are overcome by the evidence. Then if confirmation also comes that the semen had likely come from Aaron Kosminski (the comparison IIUC came from descendants of his relatives) then this will make it even more definitive. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/8 "2014-09-07T18:27:15Z")
“A shawl found by the body of Catherine Eddowes, one of the Ripper’s victims, has been analysed and found to contain DNA from her blood as well as DNA from the killer.” So the DNA itself confess to being the killer? Or is the mere presence of a man’s DNA on a garment which was allegedly worn by a murder victim now conclusive evidence to his guilt? “It was said to have been found next to the body of one of the Ripper’s victims, Catherine Eddowes, and soaked in her blood. There was no evidence for its provenance, although after the auction I obtained a letter from its previous owner who claimed his ancestor had been a police officer present at the murder scene and had taken it from there.” So our key piece of evidence is a shawl stored by a dude who is willing to write a letter verifying that he’s been told it was a shawl found near one of the victims of JtR? Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/9 "2014-09-07T18:33:32Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > You make a good point. He could simply have been one of her clients. But according to the article he was identified by one of the witnesses. Of course, the witness may have been mistaken. Also, the man was mentally ill, so it’s at least conceivable that he came upon the body after the fact and masturbated on the shawl. Sure. But if that is the only doubt then I would conclude that he is the Ripper. How good would a defendant do in today’s court by saying that his DNA on a shawl was simply the result of his masturbation on it after someone else killed her? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/10 "2014-09-07T18:33:37Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > This writer questions the provenance of the shawl. > [Jack the Ripper finally identified by DNA? Maybe, maybe not ... - oregonlive.com](http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2014/09/jack_the_ripper_finally_identi.html) > But how unlikely is it that a shaw that is claimed to be connected to a victim just happens to have mitochondrial DNA from one of the main suspects? According to the article, it also contains mitochondrial DNA matching a descendant of Eddowes. If that’s true, it would seem to confirm the provenance. > [@Lobohan](#): > > So, you’re telling me that a prostitute had semen on her shawl? Actually, the writer believes it wasn’t Eddowes’ shawl, since it was too expensive for a poor prostitute to have owned, but rather belonged to the killer. The analyst also believes he found a kidney cell, which are not typically found on prostitute’s shawls. (Eddowes had her kidney cut out.) I would also like to see the methodology documented in a scientific paper. However, if the shawl contains genetic material from _both_ the victim _and_ one of the prime suspects it seems pretty good evidence to me. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/11 "2014-09-07T18:36:12Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > So our key piece of evidence is a shawl stored by a dude who is willing to write a letter verifying that he’s been told it was a shawl found near one of the victims of JtR? Brilliant! That’s not really a key piece of evidence if the genetic data turn out to be correct. The genetic data would serve to confirm the claimed provenance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/12 "2014-09-07T18:40:10Z")
Yep, I agree, as I pointed before the doubts of the origins of the shawl are overcome by the DNA evidence of both the victim and the most likely perpetrator. But I do agree with science writer Susannah L. Bodman, this needs to be confirmed but so far it looks very promising. It may be one of those two times when the broken clock that is the Daily Mail is correct. ---
**Author:** ![FeAudrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/13 "2014-09-07T18:57:25Z")
_Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard’s Prime Suspect_ is a very good book centering on Aaron Kosminski (and likely the source of much of the background in the _Daily Mail_ article): > **[Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect: House, Robert,...](https://www.amazon.com/Ripper-Scotland-Yards-Prime-Suspect/dp/0470938994)** > > Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect \[House, Robert, Hazelwood, Roy\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect The book covers a lot of the social history of East European Jewish immigrant garment workers of the era, so may be of interest even to those not interested in Jack the Ripper. Yeah, the chain of custody for the shawl ain’t the best, but there was a strong case for Kosminski without it. Presumably that’s why it was his DNA that was tested for. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/14 "2014-09-07T19:07:52Z")
I won’t believe it until it says it’s true on Wikipedia ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/15 "2014-09-07T19:22:09Z")
_Fuck_, I just had a miskey close the browser and eat about 2000 words… maybe I’ll rewrite the post later. But in short, this revelation strikes me like Ballard’s report that Titanic had gone down in two pieces: the many accounts of her breaking up were brushed aside in favor of the more romantic one that has her in one piece on the ocean floor. It takes only that one fact to see how silly the conclusions and chains of reasoning were, and how obvious it was that she broke up. Ditto for “Leather Apron”/“The Polish Butcher.” The accounts talk about how strong the case and suspicions were, but brush that aside in favor of the more romantic and titillating claims that it was Gull or one of the other highborn suspects. Taking this revelation at face value makes the absurd chains of logic for those claims disintegrate, and the rather dull and plebian case jump out of the narrative. We may have been hoaxed. The researcher may have bollixed up the testing and conclusions. But like Ballard’s report, writing as someone with a lifetime fascination with the Ripper, this snaps into place as sounding completely correct… far more so than the endless solutions that turn on convoluted logic, deathbed confessions and odd coincidences. I bet one wooden farthing that further investigation will only solidify that Kosminski was “Jack.” ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/16 "2014-09-07T20:09:13Z")
There’s a thread about this at [Casebook.org](http://Casebook.org), the best site you’ll find about Saucy Jack on the internet. [Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums](http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8296) Briefly 1. There’s no evidence that the shawl belonged to Eddowes. 2. The shawl was “discovered” recently by a family who claim that an ancestor of theirs was a special policeman who found it near the scene and took it home as a gift for his wife. His wife was Not Impressed and stuffed away somewhere where it was allegedly found by modern relatives. There’s precious little evidence that this policeman even existed, none at all that he was every anywhere near Mitre Square where Eddowes was killed. 3. The DNA in question is actually mDNA. 4. The guy who wrote this book runs a Jack the Ripper gift shop (and, presumably, knows exactly how much money Patricia Cornwall has made with her crappy mDNA based book.) There’s more at that site. It’s always interesting reading but, really, don’t get your hopes up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/17 "2014-09-07T20:19:24Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > There’s a thread about this at [Casebook.org](http://Casebook.org), the best site you’ll find about Saucy Jack on the internet. > [Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums](http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8296) > > Briefly > > 1. There’s no evidence that the shawl belonged to Eddowes. > 2. The shawl was “discovered” recently by a family who claim that an ancestor of theirs was a special policeman who found it near the scene and took it home as a gift for his wife. His wife was Not Impressed and stuffed away somewhere where it was allegedly found by modern relatives. There’s precious little evidence that this policeman even existed, none at all that he was every anywhere near Mitre Square where Eddowes was killed. > 3. The DNA in question is actually mDNA. > 4. The guy who wrote this book runs a Jack the Ripper gift shop (and, presumably, knows exactly how much money Patricia Cornwall has made with her crappy mDNA based book.) > > There’s more at that site. It’s always interesting reading but, really, don’t get your hopes up. Well, regarding 1) and 2) the DNA evidence does overcome that. As for 3) the article and the book does mention from the beginning that it is Mitochondrial DNA what was searched for and compared to, not sure why remarking on it makes it to be less believable. As for 4), yeah, that is why confirmation is still needed but so far I can tell you that many counterpoints are underwhelming, or I should say: not really needed as one can say simply that confirmation of the science and the materials are still needed. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/18 "2014-09-07T20:35:34Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > 1. The DNA in question is actually mDNA. I assume you mean mtDNA, that is, mitochondrial DNA. There’s a lot more mtDNA in cells than nuclear DNA, which makes it particularly useful since it can be amplified for analysis more easily. Since it’s passed down maternally without recombination, it’s also useful for identifying ancestor/descendant relationships. If the mtDNA in the shawl in fact matches that of Eddowes’ several times great granddaughter, that’s excellent evidence that the blood on the shawl is that of Eddowes. So the provenance is no longer necessary to associate the shawl with Eddowes. Can you explain why people are using the fact that it’s mtDNA as a point against the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/19 "2014-09-07T20:39:37Z")
I think the weakest part in the chain of logic is the claim that the prostitute could not have owned such an expensive shawl and therefore it must have been left by the murderer. Who’s to say that it wasn’t given to her as a gift? Who’s to say that Kosminski hadn’t been a client of hers earlier in the day and given it to her as a gift? Could a defense attorney raise reasonable doubt? Why was Kosminski a suspect to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783/20 "2014-09-07T20:51:32Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I think the weakest part in the chain of logic is the claim that the prostitute could not have owned such an expensive shawl and therefore it must have been left by the murderer. This, for me. He lived close to the prostitute, so there’s no reason that he couldn’t have used her services. And he doesn’t strike me as a rich Polish immigrant, so is it any more likely he would have got the scarf? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dna-evidence-unmasks-jack-the-ripper/697783.md?page=2)