# DNC closes ranks: new rule excludes interlopers **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 10, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846 "2018-06-10T22:29:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/61 "2018-06-11T13:39:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If someone wants to run as a Democratic Party candidate, someone supporting the principles the party says they stand for, someone who can actually win an election, what difference does it make whether she/he’s a Democratic Party member? The “it doesn’t matter” argument cuts both ways. If party members doesn’t matter, what’s the harm in joining the party which you wish to nudge in one direction or another? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > How is liberalism radical? The left doesn’t have a radical branch (except maybe for some college students who riot and shout down conservative speakers). The mainstream left has no radical branch. I’m not sure what kind of political reality you live in, but Obama, the Clintons, Gore, and so forth are mainstream liberals in our country. To the extent that you criticize them for not being sufficiently liberal, maybe the word “radical” isn’t the best choice, but I’m pretty sure the folks you want to see elected aren’t within the general mainstream of politics at this time. > [@](#): > > Sanders did fairly well in the primary. He came from nothing and won 43% of the vote and 23 states. He wasn’t Kucinich. Yeah, and Jerry Brown did fairly well running against Bill Clinton. He still had no chance. > [@](#): > > The democratic party is getting more and more liberal. Pushing for liberal democrats from the west coast or northeast is going to get more and more common. Great. Join the party. Problem solved. After all, it isn’t like any other American political party has embraced more out-of-mainstream political ideologies and become a flaming mess because of it. What could go wrong? > [@TriPolar](#): > > The Democratic Party put us there. What have they done for this country this century? And don’t say the ACA, they fought Obama tooth and nail on that one, and he had to win the primaries with grass roots populism. What the hell are you talking about, that “they” fought Obama tooth and nail on a bill that got passed with 60 votes in the Senate? A few accomplishments of the Democratic Party in the last couple decades: two Presidents restoring economic growth after painful recessions. The first government surpluses in ages. Health care, including for millions of kids. First African American President. A government bureau whose only purpose is to hold corporations accountable for screwing consumers. Osama bin Laden dead. End of dependence on foreign oil and the beginnings of a green energy sector. Ended torture. Committed the US to tackling climate change. End of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, and first moves to extend Federal benefits to same sex couples. What have they done? Good things. What has Jill Stein done, huh? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/62 "2018-06-11T13:57:33Z")
Aqueducts. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/63 "2018-06-11T13:59:13Z")
In the summer of 2016 I’m sure the GOP wished they had a rule to block non-members - and members of the moment - from getting the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/64 "2018-06-11T14:10:26Z")
It would be easier to accept as principled and considered Sanders’ decision not to be part, even at a minimal level, of an organization whose support he wanted for the Highest Office in the Land if he’d ever stated his reasons. Or if his holdout acolytes on the Internet could offer something, either. No organization is obliged to subsidize a non-member’s ego trips. That should be obvious, one might think. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/65 "2018-06-11T14:29:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The Democratic Party has goals? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Maybe not, but if they’re looking for one, I’d like to suggest _the utter annihilation of the Republican Party._ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/66 "2018-06-11T14:29:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What have they done? Good things. What has Jill Stein done, huh? > [@](#): > > **Mrs. Claypool (Margaret Dumont):** Mr. Driftwood, three months ago, you promised to put me into society. In all that time, you’ve done nothing but draw a very handsome salary. > > **Otis B. Driftwood (Groucho):** You think that’s nothing? How many men do you think draw a handsome salary? Jill Stein’s apparently been drawing a handsome salary from [the $7M she raised supposedly for the purpose of paying for recounts](https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-happened-to-jill-steins-recount-millions) of the 2016 election results. (You think that’s nothing? ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/67 "2018-06-11T15:26:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > the findings also show that it is **also** wrong to claim that “Her campaign started the ‘Obama is a Muslim’ bullshit, and she went along with it” But GIGObuster… the claim that Hilary started the “Obama is a Muslim” meme has just the right amount of truthiness. And in the end, isn’t that all that matters? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/68 "2018-06-11T16:04:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Her campaign started the ‘Obama is a Muslim’ bullshit Can we focus on that for just a moment? What makes you think that is true? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/69 "2018-06-11T16:10:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A few accomplishments of the Democratic Party in the last couple decades: two Presidents restoring economic growth after painful recessions. The first government surpluses in ages. Health care, including for millions of kids. First African American President. A government bureau whose only purpose is to hold corporations accountable for screwing consumers. Osama bin Laden dead. End of dependence on foreign oil and the beginnings of a green energy sector. Ended torture. Committed the US to tackling climate change. End of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, and first moves to extend Federal benefits to same sex couples. (Emphasis mine) Minor, minor quibble. You can’t praise them for getting rid of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell without mentioning that they also started it because Bill Clinton didn’t have the nads to stand up to the Joint Chiefs (like Truman did for integration). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/70 "2018-06-11T16:11:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not sure what kind of political reality you live in, but Obama, the Clintons, Gore, and so forth are mainstream liberals in our country. To the extent that you criticize them for not being sufficiently liberal, maybe the word “radical” isn’t the best choice, but I’m pretty sure the folks you want to see elected aren’t within the general mainstream of politics at this time. > Yeah, and Jerry Brown did fairly well running against Bill Clinton. He still had no chance. > > Great. Join the party. Problem solved. After all, it isn’t like any other American political party has embraced more out-of-mainstream political ideologies and become a flaming mess because of it. What could go wrong? You think Obama, Clinton and Gore were liberals? Obama liked to joke that by European standards, he was a conservative. They did pass some good laws. I liked Clinton’s 1993 tax bill, that was a lasting legacy. But they aren’t liberals. Also liberal agendas are not unpopular with the public. I think the public respects strength, not wimpy begging for friendship like the democrats do. The democrats need to start playing hardball and be shameless about it. If they win the senate in 2018, block every judge until we have a democratic president. Use the hell out of reconciliation. Push for statehood for DC and Puerto Rico. Pass a massive new voting rights bill. Rebuild the labor movement. Put Trump and his family in prison where they belong. I really don’t understand your argument. The public are low information voters for the most part. The vast majority of people barely understand any of the issues. You really think they understand or care about whether a democrat is liberal or moderate? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/71 "2018-06-11T16:23:37Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Minor, minor quibble. You can’t praise them for getting rid of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell without mentioning that they also started it because Bill Clinton didn’t have the nads to stand up to the Joint Chiefs (like Truman did for integration). No question, I agree. But we also can’t discount how far the American public has come on gay rights in the last generation. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > You think Obama, Clinton and Gore were liberals? Obama liked to joke that by European standards, he was a conservative. So what? They are liberals. The definition of “liberal” is not “left enough to get your support.” And yeah, a lot of liberals in this country would be centrists in European countries. That’s neither here nor there. > [@](#): > > Also liberal agendas are not unpopular with the public. Sure, in opinion polls, a lot of liberal positions have support. But for reasons I’m not sure I fully understand, Americans don’t really like voting for candidate who are more liberal than the politicians you say are whimpy European moderates. > [@](#): > > The democrats need to start playing hardball and be shameless about it. If they win the senate in 2018, block every judge until we have a democratic president. Use the hell out of reconciliation. Push for statehood for DC and Puerto Rico. Pass a massive new voting rights bill. Rebuild the labor movement. Put Trump and his family in prison where they belong. I’m with you on those issues, but if “playing hardball” means doing things like exercising the nuclear option (as Reid and McConnel have done) then I disagree with that kind of hardball – because it will come back to bite us in the ass when Republicans are in charge. > [@](#): > > I really don’t understand your argument. The public are low information voters for the most part. The vast majority of people barely understand any of the issues. You really think they understand or care about whether a democrat is liberal or moderate? My argument is that acting like a progressive version of the Tea Party is bad for the country, and that it is inherently reasonable for the Democratic Party to insist on having Democratic candidates be Democrats. I should add that I don’t much care for this “most voters are too dumb to understand how great progressives are” line of argument that you’re implying. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/72 "2018-06-11T16:38:13Z")
Please drop the hijack about birtherism / Obama is a muslim / Clinton started a rumor, etc. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/73 "2018-06-11T16:55:26Z")
Most voters barely pay attention. I don’t agree with the myth of the rational voter. The myth of the rational voter has cost democrats elections. Treating voters as if all of them have a nuanced understanding of the complexities of policy doesn’t work. I don’t know what voters respond to, but nuanced policy arguments don’t seem to be it. Voters seem to respond to values. > **[Trump Won Because Voters Are Ignorant, Literally](https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/10/the-dance-of-the-dunces-trump-clinton-election-republican-democrat/)** > > Democracy is supposed to enact the will of the people. But what if the people have no clue what they’re doing? My point is that treating voters as if they are cerebral and vote based on an intellectual understanding of policy is a waste of time. For the most part people vote based on in-group/out-group dynamics and various moral values like fairness or the importance of tradition, safety and authority. Also I’m unsure why you feel you speak for all 70 million democratic voters in saying who they will and will not vote for. I don’t speak for them either, but this isn’t the 1980s and we aren’t in the Dukakis years. Literally half the people who voted in 1988 are dead and have been replaced by younger voters. Liberals now make up half of democratic voters, up from just a third even a decade ago. > **[Liberals make up the largest share of Democratic voters, but their growth has...](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/17/liberals-make-up-largest-share-of-democratic-voters/)** > > About half of Democratic and Democratic-leaning registered voters describe their own political views as liberal. I don’t like playing hardball, but if the GOP does and we do not, we lose. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/74 "2018-06-11T17:33:08Z")
Dems have also won elections by voters being rational, such as turning against crazy Republicans in Senate races in Missouri, Indiana, Nevada and other states in recent past. Not to mention voters twice overwhelmingly voting for the black guy, even though there are many reasons why lots of smart people thought that dumb voters would not do so for many decades later. And I’m not telling anyone who to vote for, so if that’s what you think I’m doing, you’re on some different planet. I’m saying that the candidates you seem to prefer generally haven’t done very well in past elections. If you want to vote for them, knock yourself out. But if people vote for spoiler candidates in a general election, as they did for Jill Stein and Ralph Nader, and fuck up the country in the process, you’re damn right that I’m going to say that they are part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/75 "2018-06-11T17:52:21Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > If Bernie were president, we would not have Gorsuch, or Pruitt or DeVos or Cow-Pai, and most of the rest of the world would have at least a half a shred of respect left for the US. And he probably would have vetoed that ridiculous tax bill. So, a little less destruction would have been better than what we have. And the same could be said for Hillary. There is somehow the assumption that if Bernie was the candidate in 2016 he would have won. These all ignore the fact that if Bernie were the candidate, the GOP/Russian lie machine would have been trained on him instead of Hillary. He would have been an out of touch leftist radical who was a [sexual deviant](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-essay/), [soviet sleeper agent,](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-02-11/how-bernie-sanders-spent-his-soviet-honeymoon) who isn’t a[full American](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4zm640/why_do_so_many_us_politicians_have_dual_usisraeli/) and should be locked up along with his wife[for fraud](http://www.newsweek.com/jane-sanders-bernie-sanders-fraud-loans-burlington-college-628570). This is, of course, all bullshit but then again so were the allegations against Clinton. Note that the main difference between the Obama win and the Trump loss was the lack of turnout of black voters. These are the voters who supported Hillary much stronger than Sanders. So it unlikely that putting Sanders in Hillary’s place would correct this. A Sanders candidacy would put us in exactly the same place we are today, we would all be bemoaning the fact that the Democrats once again shot them selves in the foot. Rather than a moderate tried and true candidate like Clinton, we chose a radical like Sanders who was the one person that Trump could beat, as evidenced by all the people who voted for Trump because “at least he wasn’t Sanders”. The conclusion would be that America was clearly not ready for a progressive and we should concentrate on just getting elected. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/76 "2018-06-11T18:03:51Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > (Emphasis mine) > > Minor, minor quibble. You can’t praise them for getting rid of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell without mentioning that they also started it because Bill Clinton didn’t have the nads to stand up to the Joint Chiefs (like Truman did for integration). The choice wasn’t “don’t ask don’t tell” vs “full acceptance of gays in the military”, it was between “don’t ask don’t tell” and legislative action outlawing gays in the military. Once again revisionist historians demanding that the perfect become the enemy of the good. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/77 "2018-06-11T18:05:25Z")
Yes, certainly, and it wasn’t a matter of “standing up” to people over whom he had authority to issue orders, but dealing with the opposition(ist) party in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/78 "2018-06-11T18:17:53Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > These all ignore the fact that if Bernie were the candidate, the GOP/Russian lie machine would have been trained on him instead of Hillary. He would have been an out of touch leftist radical who was a [sexual deviant](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-essay/), [soviet sleeper agent,](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-02-11/how-bernie-sanders-spent-his-soviet-honeymoon) who isn’t a[full American](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4zm640/why_do_so_many_us_politicians_have_dual_usisraeli/) and should be locked up along with his wife[for fraud](http://www.newsweek.com/jane-sanders-bernie-sanders-fraud-loans-burlington-college-628570). That, and there are all kinds of ways to dogwhistle “Jew”. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/79 "2018-06-11T18:46:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Why? Are you saying Bernie Sanders didn’t work for and support the Democratic Party, going back to the time when Hillary was a Republican? Is it because Democrats only represent their membership and not the rest of the country? Or is it just because they love to lose elections and put insane Republican morons in office? Hillary Clinton wasn’t old enough to vote when she was a Republican. I’m fine with forgiving people for actions in their teens. Sanders was a complete failure as an adult until he finally managed to get himself elected mayor of the metropolis of Burlington, VT. The Democratic Party certainly doesn’t need ‘allies’ such as Sanders. Take any Sanders stump speech during his failed primary run: Sanders: “The Democratic Party…” pause Audience: 'BOO!!!" ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846/80 "2018-06-11T18:57:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It would be easier to accept as principled and considered Sanders’ decision not to be part, even at a minimal level, of an organization whose support he wanted for the Highest Office in the Land if he’d ever stated his reasons. Or if his holdout acolytes on the Internet could offer something, either. He’s in the US Senate now, and maybe he doesn’t want to pay the inflated dues the party asks of US Senators. Though I think in his case, it’s more that he came up as an independent “Socialist” and he figures staying that way helps his credibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnc-closes-ranks-new-rule-excludes-interlopers/815846.md?page=5)